The Hot Tub Industry Sucks

Hi Allan,

Good question.

The Instinct uses a top load 50 sq ft filter, so access is simple and you don't have to dig around inside the cabinet to service it.

On the motors, don't let anyone confuse quality with size. The pumps in the Instinct are the same level of quality you'd expect in this category. The difference is that the Twilight is a crazy high-end end therapy spa. It runs larger pumps and more big high flow therapy jets, which is why it delivers a stronger massage and costs more.

The better comparison for the Instinct is tubs like the Jacuzzi J345, Master Spas Clarity Series, Bullfrog X Series, or Artesian Island Series. Those models typically retail in the $11,000 to $13,000 range through traditional dealers.

The Twilight sits a level above that. You're generally looking at roughly $13,000 to $15,000 because you're paying for a substantially larger therapy package, not because the pumps are somehow better quality.

If you're after the best value, the Instinct is tough to beat. If your main goal is deep therapy and muscle relief, that's where the Twilight earns the extra money.

Are you looking for maximum therapy, or the best value for the money?

And I can get you great pricing on any of these tubs if you want I'll get Bill to reach out to you with quotes and offers let you know what's going on in your local market.

Hi Arend,

If that 2023 Twilight 7.2 is truly in excellent condition, running properly, and you can see it full of water with everything working, then $7,500 is about exactly what I would expect it to be worth.

Personally, I would not spend an extra $9,000 just to get a warranty.

People tend to overvalue hot tub warranties. When you break down the actual value, you're talking maybe a couple hundred dollars a year in expected benefit. The reality is most owners never make a major warranty claim.

You're also comparing it the right way.

A used Toyota with a strong reputation is often a safer buy than a brand new vehicle from a manufacturer with a weaker track record. I look at Master Spas much the same way. They are one of the better built tubs on the market today. Self supported shell, full foam insulation, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, common industry parts. The fundamentals are all there.

The other thing I like is that Master uses widely available components. Pumps, heaters, controls, jets and plumbing parts are easy to source and competitively priced. You're not getting trapped into proprietary parts that only one dealer can supply.

That doesn't mean you skip due diligence.

I'd want to see it filled, heated, circulating, and running through every pump speed and jet zone before handing over money. I'd also budget for a professional mover. A bad move causes more hot tub damage than normal ownership ever will.

If the tub checks out, I'd be very comfortable buying that 2023 at $7,500 rather than spending $16,500 on a new one.

That said, if you do decide you'd rather compare new pricing, we can usually do better than $16,500 through the same sellers. I can have Bill reach out and get you proper pricing on a new Twilight 7.2 so you can compare apples to apples before making the decision let me know if you wanna dig deeper into new tub pricing.

Quick question, have you seen the used tub running and heated in person yet?

For sure I will have bill reach out to you he can get you to the right number.

if its a small area you can use a can of standard spray foam, or you can pack lightly with fiberglass pink.

Hi Michelle,

You're not alone. This is an extremely confusing industry right now.

The biggest problem is that private equity firms have bought up a huge chunk of the hot tub market. In many cases, one parent company owns eight or nine different brands. You walk into different showrooms thinking you're comparison shopping, but often you're really shopping against the same company with different marketing, different sales pitches, and slightly different cosmetics.

It's a bit of a mess.

The other challenge is that a lot of tubs look great on a showroom floor, but the build quality underneath can be completely different. There is a lot of low end construction out there right now, cradle supported shells, lighter insulation systems, plumbing without clamps, and proprietary parts that can become expensive headaches later.

For therapy and massage, the biggest thing to understand is that large high flow therapy jets cost real money to build. A lot of tubs use dozens of smaller jets that feel impressive during a quick wet test, but they don't move as much muscle tissue over the long term. That's one reason you see such large price differences between models.

The good news is there are still some very good options depending on your budget.

If you're looking for the best value, I'd be looking at something like the Instinct line.

If therapy and massage are your top priority, then I'd be looking at the Master Spas Twilight Series because it carries substantially larger therapy jets and pump packages.

Before I point you toward specific models, I need a little more information.

What's your budget range, and are you looking for a lounger or an open seating layout?

Yes $9500 a good price for a 2025 LH 7 demo floor model hot tub. Sundance comparable model would be a Peyton. But make sure it still has the full foam package and the wood frame, They are made in Mexico since they got acquired by and equity firm and the now carry big shipping and tariff hits right now and we have seen them cutting corners on production of some models to offset the costs :-(

But even better would be the Instinct Vital Model, its a master as well and built to the same spec but it beats both those on price and jet packages, it has a more of the expensive high flow jets and a great neck and shoulder reverse molded quad 3.5" mid flows... and because we stripped all the dealer markups and marketing and floor space you can get it new for $8600 delivered and installed and serviced by Atlas, you have to buy it online through the factory site and Atlas will still get the profit from the deal but you cant order it through the store its exclusive for our customers. and its covered by my buyers protection so if you had any unresolved issues we will deal with the seller for you :-)

https://instinctspas.com/products/vital-instinct

You have service there for any brand with a standard build, the only brands you need dealers for are the ones that intentionally make parts wierd so they can lock them into their eco system and make bank off you for repairs :-)

Jacuzzi and Nordic are solid choices, do you have pricing on models yet?

No we aren’t that far along in the decision process, haven’t even visited a store yet. It looks like it maybe a late summer or fall project. Especially appreciate the Costco review it was nice to see our suspicions about build quality were confirmed. Keep up the good work &Thanks

No worries, if you want I will drop you into our new beta Private buyers service, Bill can reach out and negotiate better pricing through the local sellers and definitely get you better pricing.

yeah touch up the doles with rostellum or nail polish... best bet for fit is lay it out on the cover then measure to fit

Measure twice, then twice more. Ended up needing to cut both poles to make it fit. Now installed. And thank you for reply, and for buyer service: negotiation tools provided got me $1,000 off asking, and free chems, cover, lifter.

Marquis used to be one of the better independent brands out there, so you're not imagining things.

They were acquired by Monomoy Capital, and since then a few things have changed that I don't love. The big one is plumbing. They moved away from traditional glued and mechanically clamped plumbing connections and now lean on the SureGrip system. The industry pitch is that it's just as good. I don't buy it. In marine, industrial, and commercial applications, mechanical clamping remains the gold standard because it works long term.

They also consolidated production into the Artesian facility after closing the West Coast operation. None of that automatically makes Marquis a bad brand, but it does mean they're not the same company they were five or ten years ago.

As for the Broadway Elite specifically, it's actually one of the better tubs in their lineup. The jet package is decent and it has a fair number of larger, higher flow therapy jets, which matter a lot more than a bunch of tiny spinner jets. That's the good news.

The weak spots are the neck and foot therapy. The neck system is basically a couple of small jets, nothing I'd consider a serious neck massage package. The footwell also isn't a standout. If deep therapy is the goal, there are stronger options.

The bigger issue is value. Like most private equity acquisitions, prices went up. That's become a pattern across the industry. Marquis isn't a nightmare brand today, but at the prices I'm seeing, they're often competing against tubs that have equal or better build standards for similar money.

If the Broadway Elite is priced right, I'd still consider it. If it's pushing into premium territory, I'd start comparing it against Master, Jacuzzi, and a few carefully selected Artesian models before signing anything.

Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. Send me the exact written quote and I'll tell you if it's competitive. If it's not, I can usually tighten the number up or point you at a better value option. We don't sell tubs. We introduce you to the same sellers, get better pricing, and back it with HTU Buyer Protection. If a dealer starts playing games after the sale, you've got someone in your corner instead of fighting them alone.

What price did they put in writing on the Broadway Elite?

Yeah so those guys have been selling in Salt Lake for a lot of years and they just recently opened the location there they used to service it remotely and even then they had good service levels so this is definitely not a bad thing. The prices are pretty good but we can do a little bit better we have some discount codes we can apply for our customers through that same seller. In the big pluses we're going to cover you with Buyer's Protection let me if you ever do have an issue you're not one-on-one with a dealer you call us we'll quietly push the right buttons in the background and make things move fast. It's the gold standard for hot tub service nobody wants in the wrong side of the guy that helps 30 million in hot tub purchases flow through the market.

I'll have Bill reach out to you with some options.

Dave, New Richmond, Wisconsin gets real winter, so insulation matters.

Cal Spas is okay if the price is right, but it is not my first pick around 10k. You are looking at a tier two build, lighter shell support, lighter insulation, and more showroom pitch than real winter ownership value.

For Wisconsin, I want full foam, a self supported shell, clamped plumbing, and standard parts. That keeps heat costs down and keeps service simple. Around that 10k mark, the standout is Instinct.

That tub used to sit in stores around 11k to 12k. We stripped out the dealer markup, brochures, sales commissions, and marketing junk, and brought it factory direct to about 8600 delivered and installed. Cover included, national service included.

It is built to our spec, full foam, better shell, proper plumbing, standard parts, no options circus. That is how you keep winter running costs under control.

On energy cost, nobody can give you an honest exact number because it depends on wind exposure, usage, cover quality, water temp, and electric rate. But in that climate, a well built full foam tub is usually the difference between normal winter cost and getting punched every month by a cheap insulation package.

We also back it with Buyer Protection. You do not go one on one with a dealer if something drags. You text us, we push buttons in the background, and sellers do not like being on the wrong side of us.

I’ll have Bill reach out with a couple options that fit the 7 seat, 10k range.

Do you want open seating only, or is a lounger okay?

Open seating

Mitchell,

Yeah, $15k on an American Whirlpool 461 feels high.

American Whirlpool is middle of the road. Not junk, but not a $15k no brainer either. The shell is decent and the jet package is okay, but the neck and shoulder jets are mostly small low flow jets, and there is no serious foot therapy in that layout.

The bigger issue is the build package.

They use perimeter insulation, which is cheaper and lower value than full foam. That is the same kind of insulation pitch you see in price point tubs.

They also use a steel frame. Steel is not there because it is better, it is there because it is cheaper and easier in production. A good wood frame is more than strong enough, quieter, and gives better insulation value.

And the plumbing is not clamped. That matters. In marine, industrial, and any high vibration water system, you clamp plumbing because it works. Glued and clamped lines are the gold standard.

So yes, I think you can do better.

Get on my private buyer service. I can almost certainly find you that tub for less, probably through the same seller, and we can also look at better built options in your area. You have good service coverage where you are, so you do not need to be trapped by one dealer as long as the tub uses standard parts and a sensible build.

I’ll have Bill reach out to your Yahoo email with options.

Do you want best value, or stronger therapy?Mitchell,

Yeah, $15k on an American Whirlpool 461 feels high.

American Whirlpool is middle of the road. Not junk, but not a $15k no brainer either. The shell is decent and the jet package is okay, but the neck and shoulder jets are mostly small low flow jets, and there is no serious foot therapy in that layout.

The bigger issue is the build package.

They use perimeter insulation, which is cheaper and lower value than full foam. That is the same kind of insulation pitch you see in price point tubs.

They also use a steel frame. Steel is not there because it is better, it is there because it is cheaper and easier in production. A good wood frame is more than strong enough, quieter, and gives better insulation value.

And the plumbing is not clamped. That matters. In marine, industrial, and any high vibration water system, you clamp plumbing because it works. Glued and clamped lines are the gold standard.

So yes, I think you can do better.

Get on my private buyer service. I can almost certainly find you that tub for less, probably through the same seller, and we can also look at better built options in your area. You have good service coverage where you are, so you do not need to be trapped by one dealer as long as the tub uses standard parts and a sensible build.

I’ll have Bill reach out to your Yahoo email with options.

Do you want best value, or stronger therapy?

Kevin,

A Twilight is a strong move from a cedar tub. You get a self supported shell, full foam insulation, glued and clamped plumbing, and a therapy package that actually moves muscle. That's why it sits near the top of our list.

On rodents, a lot comes down to assembly quality and how well the cabinet fits together. If there are gaps around the skirt, mice will find them.

Master does a good job here. The skirts fit tightly, there are fewer access points, and the overall assembly is cleaner than a lot of competitors. That doesn't make them rodent proof, but it does make them a tougher target.

You still want:

A clean crushed stone perimeter around the pad, not mulch.

No stored firewood, bird seed, or brush piles nearby.

Vegetation trimmed back from the spa area.

For the pad, my preference is:

1. Reinforced concrete slab, best overall.

2. Properly compacted crusher run with quality pavers.

What I do not like is dropping a premium spa onto soft gravel, uncompacted stone, or a deck that hasn't been checked for load.

Since you're in Rhode Island, freeze protection and a level base matter. A 4 inch reinforced concrete pad is usually the cleanest long term solution.

And yes, we can absolutely help with pricing. Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. We don't sell tubs. We introduce you to the same sellers, get better numbers, and back it with Buyer Protection. If anyone drags their feet, you text me and I sort it.

Which Twilight model are you considering, 7.2, 7.25, 8.25, or something else?

I am considering either a twilight 7.2 or a legend lsx700 as my wife is interested in the hydrotherapy benefits I have read about in the marketing materials. Open for discussion for sure.

Yeah we can definitely help you get better pricing through the same local Sellers and we can cover you with our buyers Protection Service. It's the gold standard in hot tub service right now you ever have a problem with a seller that we put you through you reach out to us instead of having a one-on-one battle and we'll apply pressure in the right places nobody wants in the bad side of this much traffic lol

I'll get Bill to reach out with some options.

Michael,

Long Island gives you cold winters, so build quality matters. The stuff you can't see in a showroom is what determines whether you're happy ten years from now.

The big things I look for are a self supported shell, full foam insulation, glued and clamped plumbing, quality OEM parts, and a manufacturer that isn't cutting corners to hit a marketing price point.

For a six person tub, my top recommendations would be Master Spas, Jacuzzi, and Artesian.

Master is usually my favorite because it's US built, privately held, full foam, and has some of the best therapy in the industry. Jacuzzi is also a solid choice, but you're paying a premium for the brand and marketing. Artesian still builds a decent spa, although I think they're getting harder to justify at current pricing.

Before you buy anything, get on my private Buyer Service. It's $99, but it typically saves people far more than that, usually around $500 and often more.

The bigger value is the Buyer Protection. If you ever have an issue with a seller, you don't have to fight that battle yourself. You bring me into the conversation and I'll deal with them directly. We have a 100% success rate and have never had a Buyer Protection complaint.

We don't sell hot tubs. We connect you with the right sellers, help make sure you're getting a fair deal, review quotes, compare models, and make sure you're covered after the sale. We can also jump on calls, emails, or texts and walk through everything with you before you make a decision.

A little guidance up front can save you thousands and help you avoid ending up with the wrong tub.

What's your target budget?

10,000-12,000 dollars

Hey Michael that's a tricky price point there's a lot of junk at that end of the market but there's also some gems. I'm going to get Bill to reach out to you with some options he can put you through the local sellers at the right price and then guarantee you a high service level with our buyers protection.

Hi James, this might be a typo? I cant find anything on Blainville spas... never heard of them and searching s620 gave no firm results

Jacuzzi 300 series is a solid option although being made in Mexico with the Tariff hit and their corporate ownership model makes them a little pricey they're definitely a step ahead of that Chevy stuff if you want to stay Canadian Beachcomber is also a great option if you want I can get Bill to have a look at your local market and see what he can find what kind of budget expectations do you have?

Maple spas is Solid middle of the road if the price is right they can be a decent purchase what model you're looking at and what kind of pricing do you have?

Cheryl,

I've been to New Haven and Neil's Harbour a few times. Beautiful part of the world.

The first thing I'd say is this: where you live, local service is almost irrelevant. Nobody has a tech sitting around every corner in Northern Cape Breton. What matters is buying something that's easy to repair, uses common parts, and can get components shipped to your door quickly when you need them.

Between those three, none of them would be at the top of my list.

The Hydropool 728 Platinum is the easiest one for me to rule out. Hydropool sits lower in the Jacuzzi family lineup. The shell construction is lighter, the insulation strategy is weaker, and a lot of the price goes into marketing rather than build quality. You're paying a premium for a badge, not getting premium construction.

The Maple M750 is probably the better tub of the three from a build standpoint, but it's still not something I'd get excited about. It's decent, nothing special, and it would come down entirely to price.

The Be Well E770 falls into a similar category for me. Not terrible, not outstanding. Again, the question is whether you're getting enough value for the money.

For your location, I'd be focusing on full foam insulation, common Balboa or Gecko components, straightforward plumbing, and something that any competent technician can work on. That's worth a lot more than a fancy showroom pitch when you're hours away from major service centers.

Before I tell you which way I'd lean, I need to know the numbers.

What are the actual written prices you're seeing on the Maple M750, Be Well E770, and Hydropool 728 Platinum? Keep your name out of dealer databases for now, send me the quotes and I'll tell you if any of them are worth pursuing or if I can point you toward a better tub for the same money and cover you with Buyer Protection.

What prices did they give you?

Thanks for your response. So has you’ve been to my area.
Hydropool. 28,500 tax in
Maple 16,000 tax in
Be Well 22,000 without taxes.
I love the Maple’s price but the self-cleaning feature of the Hydropool has me hooked.
Hardest decision.
While in Halifax, we looked at an Arctic Spa, but for around 32,00 or more we thought that was a lot. Love the Spa Boy feature and that it’s salt water.
I see you love Master Spas. Can you suggest somewhere better for where I live?

I want to add, that we are getting the hot tub mostly for therapeutic use as I have neck and shoulder issues while my husband has all over body issues.

Cheryl,

For therapy, Hydropool would be off my list.

The self cleaning pitch is old tech dressed up as innovation. Most tubs move floor debris around. Hydropool just markets it harder.

The bigger issue is how they do it. That system relies on pressure side filtration, which means debris goes through the pumps and equipment before it gets filtered. Modern suction side filtration catches debris before it runs through the expensive stuff.

So no, I would not pay $28,500 tax in for that. Hydropool is the lower cousin inside the Jacuzzi group. If you were spending that kind of money with that family of brands, I’d rather see you in a Jacuzzi.

Maple at $16,000 tax in is the best value of those three, but it is not a real heavy therapy tub.

Be Well at $22,000 plus tax makes no sense to me.

For neck, shoulders, and full body therapy, stop looking at brochures and look at the jets. Big high flow therapy jets are expensive, usually $80 to $100 each, and they move muscle. The little low flow jets are cheap, usually $10 to $20, and they feel busy but do not do much long term.

That is why the Master Spas Twilight line costs more. It has one of the strongest therapy jet packages on the market, self supported shell, full foam, clamped plumbing, compression fittings, and common parts. That is the kind of build I’d want in Northern Cape Breton.

We can likely route you through the Halifax distributor with our private buyer service and see what a Twilight lands for delivered into your area. Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. We don’t sell tubs, we get you to the right seller, push for better pricing, and cover you with Buyer Protection.

The halifax Dealer regularly deliveres Twilight into Cape Breton through my buyer's service we negotiated a price delivered and Installed at under $20k.

Ill get bill to hit you up with detailed prices on email.

Typically a tub depreciates by 30% the first year in 10% each year after. So in good condition this tubs with about $6,600

The main thing is to look at are pump seals look for white deposit between where the shaft goes into the back of the pump head from the motor and look at the heater terminal see if there's any corrosion or any white buildup other than that just give it a once over take the sides off check for wet foam or any indication of leaking. I can get you new ones very good prices as well through the same local sellers we get a really good prices on any brand.

Ok, here is our new dilemma. After reading all of your reviews and advice, we have decided to go new rather than used. With that said, it's down to the Master Spas Twilight 8 ft, or the Jacuzzi 300 series 8 ft. We love the aesthetics of the Jacuzzi as well as the comfort of the lounger seat & cooling seat options. It has all the features we are looking for. However, our main purpose for the spa is good hydrotherapy, and from what we've read on your site, the Twilight seems to top the list. We are ready to purchase one or the other this week. We are looking for advice to help us tip the scale one direction or the other. Thank you

Hi Heather,

First, I think you've narrowed it down to two very good brands. Jacuzzi and Master are both in my top tier. You're not choosing between a good tub and a bad tub here.

That said, if hydrotherapy is the primary goal, I'd lean Twilight and it's honestly not that close.

The thing to understand is that Jacuzzi and Master are built more similarly than most people realize. Both are quality manufacturers. The difference is that Jacuzzi is built in Mexico and sits under corporate ownership, so you're dealing with the double hit of shipping costs, tariffs, and corporate overhead. Master is built in the US and remains privately owned, which gives them a better value equation.

When people compare a Jacuzzi 300 Series to a Twilight, they're actually comparing tubs from different performance categories.

A Jacuzzi J345 is much closer to a Master Clarity Series, Instinct Spa, Bullfrog X Series, or Artesian Island Series. Those are the tubs I would normally put in the same bucket.

The Twilight sits above that group because of the therapy package.

When you're evaluating therapy, don't count jets. Look at jet size.

The big high flow therapy jets are expensive. Many of them cost $80 to $100 each. Smaller jets might only cost $20 to $30 each. That's where a huge amount of the price difference comes from, and it's also where the massage performance comes from.

The Twilight carries a dramatically more expensive jet package than the Jacuzzi 300 Series. In fact, the Twilight's therapy package is stronger than even the Jacuzzi 400 Series in my opinion. It simply moves more muscle mass and delivers a deeper massage experience.

Also, don't put too much weight on dry testing comfort.

When you're sitting in an empty tub, you're evaluating furniture.

When the tub is full, you're floating. You effectively weigh almost nothing in the seat. All those contours, cooling seats, and lounger impressions that feel important in the showroom become much less important once you're actually in the water.

If aesthetics and showroom comfort are driving the decision, I can understand the attraction of the Jacuzzi.

If hydrotherapy is the main objective, I'd buy the Twilight.

One other thing. Before you sign anything, do you have written pricing on both models? We can usually get better numbers through the exact same sellers, and it comes with our Buyer Protection service. If anything goes sideways after the sale, you have us in your corner instead of fighting a dealer one on one.

What are the written prices on the Jacuzzi and the Twilight?

We can help you out. Just sent you an email

Congrats. The LSX 800 with Master Clear is about as good as it gets right now for a salt setup.

Looking at your source water, I would absolutely fill straight from the tap. No pre filter needed.

Here's why.

pH 7.85, a little high, but normal. You'll lower it during startup.

TA 164, definitely high. This is the number you'll spend the most time adjusting. I'd target 60 to 80 ppm for a salt tub.

Calcium 53 ppm is low, but your reported total hardness of 192 ppm is actually right in the sweet spot. I would verify with your own test kit before adding calcium. Don't blindly chase numbers from the municipal report.

TDS 329 ppm is very low and perfectly fine.

Chloramine 2.44 ppm is common city water. Once you get the tub heated, balanced, and the salt system running, it won't be an issue.

For pre filters, I generally don't see enough benefit for your water profile to justify the hassle or cost. If you were on well water with iron, manganese, sulfur, or extremely hard water, different story.

For test kits, buy the Taylor K 2006C.

Not the standard K 2006.

The "C" version simply gives you larger reagent bottles so you're not replacing them every few months.

That's the gold standard kit for chlorine spas.

You'll get: Free chlorine Combined chlorine pH TA CH CYA

Everything you actually need.

On enzymes, yes, I'm a fan.

The biggest benefit isn't reducing chlorine demand directly. It's reducing the amount of oils, lotions, sweat, and organics that the chlorine has to deal with.

That means: Cleaner water Less scum line Lower sanitizer demand Less shocking

For a Master Clear system running around 1 ppm free chlorine, enzymes make even more sense.

A lot of owners use Spa Marvel with good results. We've tested about 10 different enzyme sanitizers and Spa Marvel was Far and Away the best. HIt up Guen at [email protected] tub and she can get you set up with it. Or buy it here: https://hottubuniversity.myshopify.com/

The startup order I'd follow:

1. Fill the tub.

2. Heat the water.

3. Test and lower TA first.

4. Once TA is where you want it, adjust pH.

5. Verify calcium hardness before adding anything.

6. Add the Master Clear salt according to the startup instructions.

7. Install and activate the Smart Cell.

8. Let the system establish sanitizer production.

9. Confirm free chlorine with the Taylor kit before heavy use.

One thing I'd ignore is Master's published pH target of 7.0 to 7.2. That's lower than I like to run.

I generally prefer 7.4 to 7.6 once everything stabilizes. It's easier on equipment and feels better for most people.

Also remember that Master's salt system is not like most salt systems. Most salt is dumb timer chlorine, higher salt, yo yo chemistry. Master's is on demand, about 30 percent lower salt, holds roughly 1 ppm steady. That's why it works.

Thanks mike I appreciate it :-)

If you ever need anything hit us up :-) happy hot tubbing :-)

Beth,

You’re actually running into a pretty good filter here.

The reason you’re having trouble finding a quality double lounger is that the better manufacturers generally don’t build them.

Most of the market today is driven by repeat buyers, and repeat buyers rarely choose double loungers. First time buyers often love the idea because when you sit in one dry, it feels comfortable and supportive.

The problem starts when you add water.

People float. That means loungers take up a lot of space, can be difficult to stay seated in, and often end up being the least used seat in the tub. After owning a spa for a few years, many buyers decide they'd rather have more open seating and better therapy positions.

That's why you mostly see double loungers coming from smaller manufacturers using older shell designs. They can be built inexpensively, but they're generally not what you'll find from the stronger brands at the higher end of the market.

Before you chase a double lounger, I'd ask one question:

Have you owned a hot tub before, and do you already know that you both genuinely enjoy lounge seats in the water?

That answer usually determines whether a double lounger is a must have or something that sounds better in the showroom than it works in real life.

Have you had a hot tub before?

Yes, we have had a tub in past and loved the lounger.

Yer one the 15% that do :)

Probably wellis is the best 2 lounger tub

I really wouldn't put my money into a ThermoSpa this is a really low end product if you're trying to stay in that 4 or 5K range I would look at used units before I would spend my money on something built like this. The problem is it's impossible to build a good quality shell with Reliable Plumbing and good parts and good insulation and good framing materials and sell it at 5K.

Would you like me to have a look around your area and see if there's any good used units?

Yeah that would be great I'm in the Hartford Connecticut area

https://www.facebook.com/share/18uyRMJKSo/ this is a god tub and a good deal.

https://www.facebook.com/share/17kvyRC1H4/ again good tub good price

Yep good deal its worth around $6500-$7k if working in good condition with the cover

Michael, Michigan winters change the answer fast.

You want full foam, open cell insulation. That is still the gold standard. Don’t buy the story that a thin perimeter blanket magically beats a fully foamed cabinet. It doesn’t.

For low chemical smell, most systems are just dumb timer salt systems. Higher salt, sanitizer swings up and down, more corrosion risk.

The one system I’m actually excited about right now is Master’s on demand salt system. It tests and doses as needed, runs about 30 percent lower salt, and holds around 1 ppm steady. That is why it feels cleaner and smells way less chemical.

Brand wise, I’d be looking at Master first, then Instinct if you want the best value, then Jacuzzi or Artesian depending on the exact model and price. Master is the cleanest fit for your two concerns, insulation and water care.

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. Send me your budget range and I can narrow this down hard.

What are you trying to stay under, 10k, 12k, or 15k?

Thanks for your quick reply and I'm trying to stay around $15,000. I have read about the Jacuzzi True Water system and I was wondering how the J-325 model would compare to a Master Spa. Per the Jacuzzi website, it looks like I can add the True Water system to this model. There's a local store that is advertising the J-325 model for $12,368 without the True Water system.

Lots of good 6 person tubs in Palm Springs.

Service should not be the problem there. Most major brands can cover 92262.

Cost is the spread. Instinct starts around $8,500 delivered and installed, strong value, solid build, good jet package. Master Clarity is usually the next step. If you want heavier therapy jets, Twilight is where the big high flow jets start moving real muscle, usually more like the low to mid teens. You can spend $18k to $20k easy, but you don’t always get better build.

I’d look at Instinct first for value, Master Clarity for better seating and features, Twilight if strong jets are the priority. Self supported shell, full foam, clamped plumbing, compression fittings, and common Balboa, CMP, Waterway parts are the stuff that matters.

What budget range are you trying to stay inside?

Hi,

The first thing to understand is that buying a hot tub is surprisingly difficult because almost all the information buyers get is marketing.

You see waterfalls, lights, speakers, touchscreens, fancy jet names, and sales pitches.

What you rarely get is information about the stuff that actually determines whether the tub is still running properly 15 years from now.

The expensive parts of a hot tub are the bones.

A self supported shell.

Glued and clamped plumbing.

Compression fit jet bodies.

Full foam insulation.

A heavy timber frame.

Those are the things that cost real money to build and they're the things that matter most over the long haul.

Everything else is mostly marketing.

Steel frames, perimeter insulation systems, unclamped plumbing, cradle supported shells, there are always sales pitches explaining why they're "better", but in reality they're usually cost reduction measures dressed up as innovation.

We've been saying the same thing for over 15 years because the fundamentals haven't changed.

If a manufacturer isn't doing those core things well, you're paying for fluff.

On the brands you're looking at, I would personally remove Vita and Aspen from the list.

Neither is built to what I consider a premium standard.

Vita's higher end models use a decent shell, but they're still using construction methods that don't compete with the best builders. The 300 Series in particular relies on thinner cradle supported shell designs, steel framing, lower grade insulation strategies, and unclamped plumbing.

Aspen isn't a brand I would spend my money on either.

Hot Spring is a different conversation.

Hot Spring builds a decent hot tub.

I don't put them in the "bad tub" category at all.

The problem is value.

They're now built in Mexico, owned by a large corporate group, and carry all the costs that come with that structure.

Tariffs.

Transportation.

Corporate overhead.

Marketing costs.

Dealer network costs.

On top of that, they rely heavily on proprietary components and a dealer centric service model.

That means you're often locked into your dealer for parts and repairs.

A lot of people don't realize that many of the components inside these tubs are based on common industry technology, but the connectors and systems have been modified so you're pushed back into the manufacturer's ecosystem.

That's great for corporate profits.

It's not great for owners.

The bigger issue across the industry is ownership.

Private equity groups and large corporations have bought a huge percentage of the hot tub market over the last decade.

Prices have gone up.

Build quality has often gone down.

Marketing budgets have exploded.

That's not a coincidence.

Master is one of the reasons I talk so much about ownership.

They're still privately held.

They're one of the last major manufacturers where the people running the company are hot tub people instead of corporate accountants.

That matters.

As for dealers, this is another area where the industry hasn't really caught up with reality.

Many buyers still think the local dealer is the most important part of the purchase.

On proprietary brands like Hot Spring and Jacuzzi, that's partly true because the manufacturers intentionally keep you tied into their service network.

But the dealer model itself is fading fast.

Today, national service networks matter more than local showrooms.

Master and Instinct both have service coverage throughout your area. I checked Tomahawk and there is coverage available, so service would not be a concern.

The bigger advantage is that you're avoiding a lot of the dealer markup that often adds thousands to the purchase price.

For your actual use case, relaxation, a lounger, room for family visits, and not necessarily intensive therapy, I would lean toward an Instinct model before I would buy a Vita.

You get better fundamentals.

Better long term value.

Better serviceability.

And a build philosophy that focuses on the stuff that matters.

As for therapy, don't overcomplicate it.

The sales presentations around pumps, horsepower, proprietary jet names, and miracle massage systems are mostly noise.

Big high flow jets move muscle mass.

Small jets don't.

That's really the secret.

The reason tubs like the Master Twilight series cost more is because they contain more of the expensive large therapy jets.

If relaxation is the goal, you don't necessarily need to chase that.

If therapy is the goal, then jet count means very little and jet size means everything.

On sanitation, I would completely ignore the peroxide recommendation.

That's old technology and not something I recommend.

A hot tub needs a halogen sanitizer.

That means chlorine or bromine.

Then you can reduce chemical usage with enzymes, minerals, or a modern on demand salt system.

The newer on demand salt systems are the best option available today because they're automated and maintain sanitizer levels consistently with less chemical handling.

That said, if you don't want salt, that's perfectly fine.

A simple bromine or chlorine program paired with enzymes works very well and is still what many owners use successfully.

One last thing.

Absolutely get on my Private Buyer Service before you buy anything.

I don't care whether you end up with Master, Instinct, Jacuzzi, Vita, or something else.

I'll help evaluate the quotes, negotiate pricing, and make sure you're getting a fair deal.

If I can't save you money, I'll refund the fee.

More importantly, you get Buyer Protection.

If a seller isn't delivering the level of service they promised, you don't have to fight that battle by yourself. You come to me and I bring the leverage of millions of dollars in annual purchasing power to the conversation.

That changes how quickly problems get solved.

Here's the link:

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Send me the Vita model numbers and quotes you're considering and I'll tell you exactly how they stack up.

Lydell,

The old Vanguard was not a bad tub. Twenty five years is proof of that. But your complaints are the exact weak spots of Hot Spring.

The Moto Massage is a gimmick. It breaks, performance fades, and it never really hits hard. The rest of the jetting is mostly small low flow jets, which feel busy but do not move much muscle mass. That is why the massage has always felt underwhelming.

The newer Hot Spring stuff is also a lot more expensive than it should be now. Mexico build, tariff hit, corporate ownership, heavy marketing layer, plus proprietary parts. Good tubs, but expensive to buy and expensive to keep in the field long term. Very dealer dependent too.

For your use case, no lounger, open seating, strong therapy, cold winters, and a couple using it daily, I would be looking hard at Master Spas Twilight or Artesian Elite.

Twilight is probably the closest match to what you actually want long term. Big high flow therapy jets, open seating layouts, full foam, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, Balboa systems, easy parts support. The therapy is not even in the same league as the Vanguard because it uses more of the expensive large jets that actually move muscle.

On seat depth, there is not really a magic layout here. Nobody under about 5 foot is going to fit perfectly in the main captain’s chair of a serious therapy tub. If they did, everybody taller would be sitting half out of the water. The real fix is a good weighted booster cushion. It keeps you planted, raises you into the jet zone properly, and works way better than chasing some weird shallow seating layout that usually compromises the rest of the tub.

Artesian Elite is also worth a look. Still a decent therapy tub overall. My issue is they slipped after the equity buyout and stopped clamping plumbing, so at current pricing I usually lean Master first unless the Artesian quote is aggressive.

Cold Cincinnati winters also matter. Full foam insulation matters there. Perimeter insulation is brochure nonsense once temperatures really drop.

Your 9 foot slab gives you plenty of room for most 7 foot to 7.5 foot models comfortably.

For sizing, I would probably steer you toward:

Master Twilight 7.25 or 8.25
Artesian Captiva or grand Cayman (fewer of the expensive high flow jets)

Those all fit the no lounger, open seating, stronger therapy goal much better than a modern Vanguard.

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. If you get written quotes, send them to me and I’ll route you to the same sellers, get better numbers, and cover you with Buyer Protection if anybody starts playing games.

What budget range are you targeting?

Thanks for the quick reply. The budget question is tough. We have already had the sticker shock of having not looked at prices for a couple of decades. We are willing to spend what it is worth to get the quality we want, but evaluate the price-features relationship constantly.

Sorry, I forgot to add to my reply: What are the approximate prices for those 4 tubs?

Twilight hot tubs and Artesian Captiva or grand Cayman should come in through retail run between $13-$15k

Below that Look at Instinct spas... same build quality from the same factory but no marketing budget which knocks of 30% it was $11-12k in stores but once we got it direct for our customers it dropped to $8600 delivered and installed and its built like a tank... https://instinctspas.com/

We are ready to move forward with purchase. How do we connect with your buying service?

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Sign up here and we will contact you and jump on a quick call to go thorough stuff or just get going with pricing, what ever works best for you.

Also, I can see replies here but I do not get the emails, not even in spam/junk folder. Fyi

ok bills on it :-)

Gale,

What you are describing is usually normal, especially if the two sides are running different jet packages.

The larger high flow therapy jets often feel less “spicy” than the smaller jets because they are moving a lot more water volume at lower pressure. The small jets feel sharp and aggressive because they are high pressure, low flow. That tricks people into thinking they are stronger.

In reality, the bigger jets are usually doing more actual therapy work. They move the whole muscle mass instead of just hammering the skin layer.

That is why over time the larger therapy jets tend to do a much better job preventing tension buildup in the back, hips, shoulders, and legs. The tiny jets feel exciting during a wet test, but they do not move nearly as much muscle.

Now, if one entire side of the tub is dramatically underperforming, like obviously weak flow across every seat, then yes, it is smart that they are checking pump configuration, diverter position, jet opening, and possible hose restriction. That is the right troubleshooting path.

But based on what you described so far, especially if the “weaker” side has the larger therapy jets, there is a good chance what you are feeling is just the difference between high flow therapy and high pressure small jets.

Instinct has actually been pretty solid overall about support, so the fact they had you checking pumps, hoses, and sending video is a good sign they are taking it seriously.

Quick question, does the “weaker” side have the larger therapy jets compared to the sharper feeling side?

Ray,

Both are really well built tubs. You are in good territory either way.

Both are US built, privately held, and coming from one of the oldest manufacturers in the US, also one of the largest hot tub producers in the world. Parts, service, reliability, overall build, all solid.

The Twilight 8.25 is the better massage tub in my opinion.

It has the more expensive jet package, with more of the large high flow therapy jets that actually move muscle mass. That matters more than pump count or showroom flash.

The LSX 900 is the bigger, flashier tub. That is its obvious advantage. More size, more presence, more luxury feel. But the highest line is not always the best therapy line. Sometimes it is just more lighting, trim, and magic show.

You will hear three pumps pitched as a big advantage. It can be, but bigger pumps with smart diverters can be more efficient and can push serious water to the main therapy seats. That is why the Twilight punches so hard for massage.

So my take is simple.

If you want the bigger tub and flashier package, LSX 900.

If you want the better high end therapy massage, Twilight 8.25.

Send me the written on both. I can usually route you through the same seller, get better numbers, and cover you with Buyer Protection so if there is ever a problem, you are not fighting the seller alone. We apply pressure for you.

What are they quoting you on each one?

Master Twilight seems to consistently be your top recommendation for a therapy tub, and I understand why. The Instinct does not float my boat from the look of it, even if the price point is preferable --I’d much rather pay under $14k than over. So for me, it’s the Master Twilight 7.2 or the Aspen Spa. Overall, the full foam seems a better way to go than the insulative blanket, however, we have rodents galore here on our rural island. Just wondering if that’s a consideration as to type of interior insulation. Our local mechanic earns a good living repairing non-garaged vehicles that had mice and rats get into the wiring. Also, our Aspen Spa dealer did not think salt spas were worth the extra risk of corrosion, so what is your take on the Master Twilight upgraded to salt treatment? Finally, our deck surface is 50” above grade, so we’ll have to build a frame to set it on — are there any specs online you point people towards regarding surface build under the hot tubs?

They made better tubs in 2018 than they do now... likely worth it if its working and not leaking.

Hi Mitchell,

Thanks for reaching out — and your reaction to the Bullfrog A7L is not unusual. Bullfrog makes a nice tub in some ways, but if you’re looking for strong deep-tissue jet therapy, they are usually not at the top of my list.

For the strongest, most therapeutic massage, I usually look at manufacturers that focus on plumbing efficiency, good jet design, proper pump-to-jet ratios, and fewer gimmicky high jet-count layouts. Brands/models worth looking at would include:

Beachcomber — very strong therapy and excellent efficiency

Artesian Elite / Island series — good jet pressure and therapy layouts

Sundance 880/980 series — strong massage, especially in the larger therapy seats

Jacuzzi J-400/J-500 series — solid upper-tier therapy

Master Spas Twilight / Michael Phelps series — often strong, depending on model and layout

The Instinct models I’ve talked about are very competitive in that category. They are built more around real therapy performance than just flashy features, and they generally deliver stronger, more direct massage than what you likely felt in the Bullfrog A7L. I would put them above Bullfrog for deep-tissue feel, especially if jet strength is one of your top priorities.

The key thing is not just “horsepower” or number of jets — it’s whether the tub has the right balance of pump power, plumbing, jet size, and air control. A lot of tubs look impressive on paper but feel weak in a wet test because they’re trying to run too many jets at once.

Since you’re in zip code 34762, send me any local dealers or models you’re considering and I can help you sort out which ones are truly strong therapy tubs versus just good marketing.

Best,

Chris

Hot Tub University

Thank you for the info, I am looking into a smaller unit that I can fit in lanai because I don't want to go through architectural review in the villages, permits etc, I had one in my lanai here before. had a Nordic Crown XL for 8 years only issue was a fuse. But looking for more lower back, hip and leg work in a new one. I am down to the Master spa TS 6.2, Jacuzzi 315, and the Bullfrog A5D. But am leaning toward the Master Spa TS 6.2 from southeast Spas in Tampa. Any other competitive models you can suggest would be appreciated and your thoughts on the TS 6
2 . I need one no bigger than. 78x78x34. That way I can get through lanai door without even removing screen. Thanks for your help and quick reply it is much appreciated

The TS 6.2 is the strongest pick in that size class.

For lower back, hips, legs, neck and shoulders, it has the best jet package of the three. And jets are not about count, they are about size and flow. Big high flow jets cost real money and move muscle mass. Small low flow jets feel busy in a wet test, but long term they do not do much.

That TS 6.2 jet package is easily $1,000 better than the Jacuzzi 315 or Bullfrog A5D. It is also US built, privately held, self supported shell, full foam, clamped plumbing, compression fittings, and good OEM parts. That is why I like it. 

Here is my jet explainer on that:

[https://youtu.be/pn2rdgv8yOc?si=eopYF3KNEkSAgh9y](https://youtu.be/pn2rdgv8yOc?si=eopYF3KNEkSAgh9y)

The Jacuzzi 315 is a good looking tub, but the jet package is weak. Those lower jets that look like big therapy jets are what I call deceptajets. Big faces, small low flow guts. Not much real lower back work. Neck and foot jets are also low flow. Pump power is about half the TS 6.2. You are paying for Mexico build costs, tariffs, shipping, equity ownership, and branding.

Bullfrog A5D is the weak link. JetPaks are gimmicky, the loop plumbing is less efficient, and the shell is a cheaper cradle supported ABS system. They are US made, so pricing can be better, but they are much smaller than Master or Jacuzzi, so parts buying power is weaker. Add equity ownership and the value drops.

One other model I would look at is the Instinct Natural. It sits between the Jacuzzi and TS 6.2 for me. Better value than the Jacuzzi, cleaner spec, factory direct, and worth pricing against the TS 6.2.

[https://instinctspas.com/products/natural-instinct](https://instinctspas.com/products/natural-instinct)

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. We can contact the seller through the Private Buyers Service, push for better pricing, and cover you with Buyer Protection. We guarantee to save you more than the $99 cost or refund it.

[https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs](https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs)

What prices do you have in writing on the TS 6.2, J315, and A5D?

Thank you, that's the way I am leaning either Master Spa 6.2 or the smaller Instinct model. I appreciate the info and was exactly what I was thinking.

I haven't got a price on the TS 6.2 yet, when I went there I was looking more at a swim spa but decided against that route. The Bullfrog A7L got a quote at $15k which I didn't even negotiate. They were high based on what. Have seen. Appears avg price on the TS 6.2 is around $11 to $13k. If I'm off base please let me know. Again. Thanks for your help

Haha $15k is a joke on that A5

we can process the TS or any other tub through your local seller at better pricing for sure and cover you under the buyers protection service.

jump on the Private buyers service, If I cant save you more than the $99 fee ill refund it... neither of those things will happen ;-)

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Chris, I decided to go with the Master Spa 67.25. I got a quote from Southeast spas for $12590 plus tax otd of $13389. Is that a good quote

Hi Adrian,

Yes the “COE” error on a Gecko system usually means the topside keypad/control panel has lost communication with the main control board.

Since it happened immediately after a power cut, there are a few common possibilities.

First thing I would try:

Turn off power to the hot tub completely at the breaker

Leave it off for at least 10–15 minutes

Remove the front panel and locate the cable running from the topside keypad to the main control box

Unplug and firmly reconnect that keypad cable on both ends if accessible

Restore power

Power surges and outages can sometimes cause the communication bus to lock up or partially corrupt startup initialization.

If that does not solve it, the next likely causes are:

damaged topside keypad

damaged communication cable

blown low-voltage section on the main board

moisture intrusion into the keypad after the outage

A quick thing to check:

If the display is partially working but buttons do nothing, that often points toward the keypad itself failing.

If the tub is completely dead except for the COE message, the main board may not be communicating properly.

Also inspect:

any signs of water inside the control box

corrosion on connectors

burnt smell or black marks on the PCB

loose ribbon cable connections

One important detail:

Some Gecko systems are very sensitive to grounding and voltage spikes. A power outage or surge can damage either the keypad or the RS485 communication circuit on the board.

Unfortunately there is no software “reset” beyond fully powering down the spa.

Chris

Hot Tub University

Chris thanks very much for your advice will try the things you suggested.cheers

Hi Dave,

I have not done a full standalone review of Royal Spa yet, mainly because they’re a smaller regional builder and we focus most of our reviews on brands with broader market presence and enough production volume to establish long-term consistency.

That said, I am familiar with the product.

In my opinion, Royal Spa falls into the category of a decent shell paired with fairly cost-conscious construction methods. Their insulation system appears to rely heavily on bagged fiber insulation rather than modern full-foam engineering. That approach is cheaper and easier to service, but over time those insulation bags can settle and leave gaps, which reduces thermal efficiency compared to a well-executed full-foam build.

They also use a lot of older-style component design. From what I’ve seen, many of the jet packages lean heavily toward smaller low-flow jets rather than larger premium hydrotherapy jets. The plumbing and jet architecture also appear fairly traditional versus some of the more modern self-supporting and fully engineered systems we see from higher-end manufacturers.

They market their construction heavily, but from a technical standpoint I wouldn’t describe it as especially unique or industry-leading.

The Epsom salt system is another area where I’d advise buyers to look carefully at the details. A lot of the marketing focuses on softer water and reduced chlorine feel, but chemically these systems still rely on sanitizers and oxidizers. Sulfate-based systems can also be harder on components. There are good reasons why the industry does not use Epson salt you can get much easier to manage water with lower chemical loads and easier management, this isn't revolutionary tech its old outdated tech.

One thing to keep in mind with smaller regional manufacturers is economy of scale. Larger manufacturers simply buy components, shells, electronics, pumps, and materials at much lower cost due to production volume. That often translates into either:

* better components at the same price point, or

* similar components at a lower price point.

If you want, send me:

* the specific Royal Spa model you were quoted

* the quoted price

* and any competing tubs you’re considering

…and I can tell you pretty quickly whether it looks competitive for the money.

Chris

Hot Tub University

Thx for your reply! I think I’ll cross Royal Spas off my list as they are pricey in addition to your assessment on their product quality.
That said, what do you recommend for a couple of senior citizens in the Indianapolis that are looking for a hot tub to ease those sore body parts? Plan to use it year round. I’m good with a 4 or 5 seater.

What kind of price point are you looking at? sub $10k or $10-$15k?

<$12K
I have basically looked on line at at various hot tub reviews and found your website- very cool! I learned most from reading/watching your videos! Really like your website and plan to use your buyers assistance.

Hi Dave,

Thank you so much for the kind words — that really means a lot to hear.

There’s a ton of noise and marketing hype in the hot tub industry, so our goal has always been to give people honest, experience-based information that actually helps them make a smart decision. I’m really glad the videos and reviews helped you cut through some of the confusion.

And thank you for planning to use our Buyer’s Assistance service — we’re happy to help you narrow things down and make sure you get the best tub for your needs and budget without overpaying.

Since you’re targeting the under-$12K range, there are actually some very solid options available depending on what matters most to you:

* reliability / low maintenance

* insulation & efficiency

* lounger vs non-lounger

* salt system vs traditional water care

* massage performance

* seating capacity

* warranty & dealer quality

Whenever you're ready, send us:

* your approximate location

* how many people will use it most often

* any “must-have” features

* and any brands/models you’re currently considering

…and we’ll point you in the right direction.

Really appreciate you reaching out and supporting what we do.

Chris

Hot Tub University

Avon Indiana; 2 persons primarily; Massage; Master Spas

I can get you good pricing on them or any brand and cover you with my buyers protections service, check out my Private buyers service.

Short list Instinct or Clarity. take a look and wee which models you like, or jump on the private buyers service its $99 we guarantee to save you more than that or refund it ;-) we can jump on a phone call, email or text while we figure it out and get pricing

https://instinctspas.com/

https://www.masterspas.com/clarity/

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Hi Robert,

Yes, that’s a solid price on a Twilight 7.2, especially with delivery, cover, cover lifter, steps, and the startup kit included.

We can do a bit better through our buyer’s service with the same seller, and also get you covered under our buyer’s protection service so you have someone in your corner through the process.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Chris

We paid 14,995 for a Masterspas 8.25 Twilight which was a display at the Washington State Fairgrounds in Puyallup WA during a weekend and we love it and works great. They did remove the light panels that are usually standard for a Twilight.

Hi Joe,

Great question, and thanks for the kind words about Hot Tub University.

On the winter temperature question, it really depends on a bunch of factors: the insulation system, how cold your climate is, whether you’re on time-of-day power rates, and how long you typically go between uses. Sometimes lowering the set point can save money, but if you’re only dropping it for short periods and then reheating often, the savings may be pretty minor, If your on Time of day you save less on the cheap time than you pay to reheat so it can actually be a negative esp with a poorly insulated tub.

For your use case, I would still absolutely want the better insulation. Full foam/open-cell insulation is better no matter what — better for holding heat in the winter and better for keeping the water cooler in the summer.

Under $10k, the one I’d really look at is Instinct Spas. It’s the only tub in that price range that I’d consider truly top build quality. It’s factory direct from the largest and oldest U.S. builder, and because of our traffic we’ve basically stripped out a lot of the usual marketing markup.

That’s where I’d be looking for this kind of use.

Chris

The Twilight 8.25 is one of the better models Master makes. In the Dallas market, a fair delivered price is usually somewhere in the $14k–$15k range depending on options, cover upgrades, steps, delivery complexity, salt system, etc.

If you want, we can usually help set the deal up at better pricing through our dealer network and also cover you with our buyer’s protection service.

You can read about that here:

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

If you have an actual quote already, send it over and I’ll tell you whether it’s a good deal or not.

Chris

Hi Ida,

Pinnacle wouldn’t be where I’d personally spend my money. In my opinion, they’re more of a typical mass-merchant-style build with better marketing than performance.

That said, it really depends on the exact model and the price. What model are you looking at, and what price are they quoting you?

$9500 on a new J285 is not a terrible price, but honestly I’m not a big fan of the Jacuzzi 200 series overall.

I like Jacuzzi as a brand, but really the 300 series and up is where the build gets materially better. The 200 line has too many corners cut for me on shell structure, insulation, and overall engineering.

The jet package is a good example. On the J285 you’ve basically got two of the expensive high flow therapy jets, a handful of mid flows, then a pile of the cheap little low flow jets filling space. On a wet test they can feel spicy for five minutes, but they don’t move real muscle mass long term.

The other thing I really dislike is that foot dome in the middle.

Most manufacturers abandoned those years ago once they got new molds because they create a bunch of problems. They become a tripping point, people constantly step on them getting in and out, and over time that floor area becomes a leak risk. Repairs underneath are a nightmare because you’re often dealing with dense resin reinforced sections.

It also forces plumbing runs underneath the floor where insulation is weakest, so you lose heat there too. Just not a design feature I love anymore.

Now if you step into something like the J345, different conversation entirely.

Much better shell structure, better insulation package, better jet layout, better overall execution. That’s where Jacuzzi starts making more sense. Problem is those are usually landing around the $14k range now.

That’s also where I’d seriously look at Instinct before spending money on a 200 series Jacuzzi.

Instinct is kind of the weird value anomaly in the market right now. It’s built in the US by the largest and one of the oldest hot tub manufacturers in the game. Same real infrastructure, same production capability, same service network. bigger pumps and more expensive jet package.

The reason the pricing is aggressive is we leveraged massive buyer traffic and basically helped strip out a huge chunk of traditional dealer markup and marketing overhead. These tubs were effectively $11k to $12k sitting in retail environments before the factory direct model got reworked.

Right now they’re landing around the mid to high $8k range installed with local service support, cover included, Buyer Protection behind it.

And build wise, it’s materially ahead of the Jacuzzi 200 series in my opinion. Better insulation, better plumbing practices, better shell structure, stronger overall jet package. Honestly much closer to the J345 class than the J285 class. and unlike the jacuzzi it has standard connection so parts are fast and easy to source whereas jacuzzi changed the connection points they both use balboa heating and control system but the Jacuzzi has to be ordered through them with a big price jump for basically the same parts.

The Buyer Protection piece matters more than people realize too. Most buyers are on their own once the deposit clears. If delivery gets delayed, install goes sideways, service communication falls apart, or a dealer starts ghosting, you’re stuck fighting it solo.

With Instinct through our network, you’ve got escalation support behind you. Real people pushing problems through the system, helping coordinate service, helping resolve issues fast. That safety net alone has real value because hot tubs are not Amazon purchases, eventually something always needs attention.

A lot of the time the negotiated pricing savings alone offsets the value of the protection coverage, and it’s already included.

Before spending close to ten grand on a J285, I’d absolutely look at Instinct side by side first.

https://instinctspas.com/products/pure-instinct

Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. If you want, send me the exact J285 configuration and I’ll tell you whether I think it’s worth chasing or if there’s a better play nearby.

Did they quote you the J285 with steps, cover, delivery, and electrical included?

Yes quoted with steps, cover, lift,and delivery the guy said it was marked down because of a scratch. I have to get it hard wired because I live in California

Again the price isn't terrible but too high for that build and jet package, the instinct at $8600 blows it out of the water, better shell, insulation, jet package and the same electronic and heating system, it also has a much higher end cover the step and lifter are Maybe $200 we can source them for you.

Saskatchewan changes the conversation fast because real winter performance matters. This is where a lot of marketing falls apart once you get into sustained cold.

Of the three, Arctic is honestly the bottom of this group for me.

Their whole pitch is basically that a little bit of cheap insulation somehow beats a lot of high R value full foam insulation. It’s honestly kind of crazy when you step back and think about it. Regulated industries would laugh at this logic. You can’t build a house in Saskatchewan with R4 walls and claim it’s more efficient than R20 because “air space.” But somehow the hot tub world lets this stuff slide.

Arctic leans heavily on perimeter style insulation, lots of open cavity, and a pile of cheaper components. They also do not clamp plumbing lines, which matters long term in freeze thaw environments and vibration. It’s just not in the same overall build category as Master or Beachcomber.

Now between Beachcomber and Master, both are legitimately good tubs.

Both use much better shell structures than Arctic, both use glued and clamped plumbing, both have materially better insulation systems, and both are built more like premium long term ownership products instead of marketing exercises.

On the Beachcomber side, I would stay away from the Hybrid4 system.

I know they market it hard, but moving pumps outside the primary insulation envelope and pumping hot water through what is basically an under insulated step compartment just doesn’t make much engineering sense. You also lose the ability to reclaim motor heat into the cabinet, which is one of the hidden efficiency advantages of a properly insulated integrated system.

If you like Beachcomber, I’d look at the integrated LEAP setup instead. They’ll sometimes position it like a step down from Hybrid, but honestly I think it’s the better engineering solution. Slightly harder for service access, sure, but not enough to matter in the real world.

The Master Clarity Precision 7 is a really solid value play in this group. Full foam, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, Balboa systems, good parts availability, very proven in cold climates. It’s a straightforward no nonsense build.

For your use case and climate, I’d personally have Master and Beachcomber clearly ahead of Arctic.

The real question now is pricing, because value matters. Sometimes Beachcomber pricing gets pretty aggressive in Canada, and sometimes Master absolutely crushes them dollar for dollar.

What prices did you get on the Precision 7, the Yukon or McKinley, and the Beachcomber 590?

Last we looked it was open celled foam not closed cell, you can have a small layer of closed cell on the shell but you cant have it encapsulating the plumbing thats where is get weird. why do you think it has closed cell full foam?

From their online brochure......
What does quality construction mean to us?
Built in the USA using premium domestic and imported materials, these spas are made to last. Every Tropic Seas Spa begins with a pressure-treated wood frame set on a solid ABS base for long-lasting strength and stability. Our Royalwood™ cabinet adds a beautiful, low-maintenance finish, while high-density foam insulation fills the space between the cabinet and shell—maximizing heat retention, minimizing energy use, and strengthening the entire structure....
https://tropicseasspas.com/features/reliable/
Hope this helps..

Hi Chris, Just checking if my reply to your question got thru since I don't see it on the conversation. Maybe after the weekend, LOL,

interesting thanks for the update, Artesian was acquired and we do see things like this happening with equity investment groups :-( tHIS IS A HUGE RED FLAG! I've reached out for confirmation its an absolute nightmare t repair leaks on HD full foamed tubs, I noticed the tub weight is down a bit from heavy grade shells by around 150lbs, if they have shaved some structure from the shell and switched to HD foam to pick up the extra load its not a good thing at all.

Yeah these is talk of an 8' model coming shortly.

Thank you. Planning on getting one very soon so might have to go with Master Spa.

I think that’s probably the smart direction honestly.

Master has the scale, the build quality, the service infrastructure, and they’re still privately held, which matters way more than people realize. Less money burned on marketing nonsense, more money in the actual tub.

The nice part is we can always negotiate private buyer pricing through the same sellers without you walking into the whole showroom CRM funnel. In every case the savings alone are more than the cost of the service and covers our Buyer Protection backing.

That protection piece matters too. If delivery drags, service gets weird, communication falls apart, you’ve got a real escalation path behind you instead of fighting a dealer solo. That’s the safety net people underestimate until they need it.

We help cut through the noise fast, compare builds properly, flag weak engineering, and leverage pricing data across markets. At the end of the day this is real people helping buyers avoid expensive mistakes.

What Master model are you leaning toward right now?

Today we went to an event that Healthy Living was hosting in Yorkville Illinois. We bought a Twilight 8.2.

Nice tub what did you pay?

$15,000 with 15 months 0%.

Yeah there is no such thing as zero interest lol NO ONE gives money for free :-) Dealer pre pays the interest and puts it in the price, but when you do the math its a good retail price for sure and a great tub, Happy hot tubbing!

You’re actually in a pretty good spot because you already know you’ll use it regularly. That’s the biggest mistake people make, buying a tub because they think they’ll use it. You already proved it with the inflatable.

For four adults, especially with tall kids over 6 feet, I’d lean you toward a 7 foot class tub. That’s really the sweet spot in this industry. Better depth, better footwell space, better value per dollar. The tiny 4 seaters sound smart until you sit in them and realize they’re shallow and You knees are up around your ears :-). Molded seating matters a lot once height enters the picture.

New Mexico is actually a pretty easy climate for hot tubs compared to brutal northern winters, but the sun and wind absolutely matter. Full foam insulation still wins because it locks plumbing in place and helps with efficiency, but you also want a good quality cover and UV resistant cabinet. Rodents are more of an issue on cheap with poorly fitting skirts.

Under $10k, there’s honestly one standout play right now, Instinct.

The reason it exists is kind of wild. It’s built by the largest and oldest hot tub manufacturer in the US, same real infrastructure and build quality, but paired with a guy who somehow spent 15 years building relationships with like 80 percent of the hot tub industry. We basically cut out the giant dealer markup, marketing circus, fake sale pricing, all the nonsense.

These were effectively $11k to $12k tubs sitting in retail stores. Factory direct through our combined buyer network they’re landing around $8600 delivered, installed, cover included. Hundreds sold since launch in January and honestly you won’t find much bad chatter because the build is solid. and its backed by my legend level Buyers protection service, its the best way to assure strong service support because if you have issues instead of a one on one battle with a seller you hit me up and I have a chat with the weight of 120,000 hot tub buyers behind me :-)

You’re getting the stuff that actually matters long term, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, full foam insulation, Balboa controls, common service parts, national support. No gimmicks, no giant showroom overhead baked into the price. and its delivered and installed with a premium cover and local service, you cant touch it.

For your use case, daily relaxation plus recovery after hiking, skiing, workouts, service industry aches, that’s exactly the lane these make sense in. its a 2 pump 40 jets tub with a solid jet package rivaling tubs like the Jacuzzi 345 for build and performance at 2/3rds the price, cutting out that marketing, dealer slice makes it untouchable and it can only happen through me and you because otherwise you have to pay a couple million a year to get the traffic that i have organically :-)

https://instinctspas.com/

Do you want more open seating, or do you prefer loungers?

Generation is basically Kevin Sparks trying to run the old Four Winds play again after selling out to equity. Problem is, the market changed. The big manufacturers now buy parts cheaper, build at scale, and can spread warranty and service costs across huge dealer networks. Small regional builders just can’t compete the same way anymore.

The build itself is pretty typical price point stuff. Cradle supported shell, lighter insulation strategy, nothing really special structurally. It’s not in the same class as a true self supported shell, full foam build with clamped plumbing and compression fittings. That stuff costs real money to build properly, and you usually don’t see it from these smaller restart brands trying to hit aggressive pricing.

Honestly, I think the plan was probably to recreate Four Winds, build dealer traction, then cash out again. It just never really got momentum. In today’s market, buyers are a lot more educated, and service infrastructure matters way more than it used to.

The bigger issue is long term support. Even if the tub is “fine” today, you have to ask where the company is in 5 to 10 years. Parts access, warranty handling, dealer coverage, that’s where these smaller regional brands get exposed fast.

That’s why I lean toward established privately held builders with real scale and common OEM parts. Stuff like Master or even Instinct on the value side. Better plumbing practices, better shell structure, full foam, easier long term ownership reality.

What model and price were you quoted on the Generation?

Leigh, you’re already zeroing in on the right stuff.

Catalina, I would personally cross off. Back in the day they were decent, but after the LPI ownership shift they basically turned into a marketing first product. Not where I’d put my money now.

Bullfrog, same thing for me. Pretty good showroom pitch, but the JetPak thing is mostly a gimmick and it rides a thinner cradle supported ABS shell. Long term I’d still take a self supported shell with glued and clamped plumbing every time. Recent QC chatter hasn’t helped either.

Jacuzzi and Master are the two strongest names on your list.

Your old Jacuzzi lasting 8 years with basically one gasket issue tells me you maintained it well, because that’s actually solid real world ownership. They’re still a good tub. But now you’re paying Mexico build costs, tariff costs, heavy marketing overhead, and more proprietary parts. Repair costs long term tend to be higher and the upfront pricing is usually inflated about $1500 to $3000 versus where it probably should be.

The J315 specifically is okay, but look closely at the jet layout. A lot of the jet count is smaller low flow jets. They feel aggressive on a quick wet test but they do not move muscle mass like the bigger therapy jets do. Foot therapy is also pretty light.

Now compare that to the Twilight 7.25.

That tub carries materially more expensive jetting. Bigger high flow therapy jets, much better neck and shoulder therapy, and one of the better deep tissue captain’s seats in that size range. For recovery and your daughter’s dance recovery, that matters way more than brochure jet count.

The 240 is more value oriented. Still built properly, still solid, but less therapy focused.

For Southern California, insulation matters less than cold climates, but build quality still matters a lot because heat and UV exposure destroy cheap covers and weaker plastics over time. Master’s covers are solid instead of the typical vinyl they use Sunbrella, its an expensive tough outer cover that's UV stable, its what they use on million dollar yachts, it has good hinge seals and locking straps. In your wind conditions I’d absolutely add upgraded tie downs and keep the cover treated a few times a year so it doesn’t dry crack. these are the gold standard in locking clips and they click right onto the master cover... https://hottubuniversity.myshopify.com/products/spa-buckle-premium-hot-tub-cover-buckle-system-set-of-4

Your target budget under 10k is the hard part.

Realistically:

J315 in store is probably going to overshoot that.

Twilight 7.25 usually lands more like low to mid teens retail.

Bullfrog AD5 often prices stupidly high for what it is.

The sneaky good value lane for you is probably either:

Master Clarity line,

or Instinct if you want to stay tighter on budget.

Instinct is factory direct from the same major US manufacturing ecosystem, self supported shell, full foam, glued and clamped plumbing, Balboa systems, delivered and installed included. That’s the one that keeps blowing up because it stripped out dealer markup and marketing theater. Usually around that 8k to 9k zone instead of 11k plus retail.

If therapy is the absolute priority though, Twilight still wins because those larger high flow jets cost real money and you can feel it.

Also, skip most salt systems unless it’s Master’s low salt setup. Most salt systems are dumb timer chlorine, higher salt, yo yo chemistry, more corrosion. Master’s is on demand, about 30 percent lower salt, holds about 1 ppm steady. That’s why it works.

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. Send me the written quotes after Saturday and I’ll route you through the same sellers, get the numbers where they should be, and cover you with Buyer Protection. If anyone drags their feet, you text me directly and I sort it.

Big question, do you want best value under 10k, or are you willing to stretch if the Twilight therapy difference feels noticeably better Saturday?

22 years out of a Marquis Euphoria is a solid run.

You’re basically deciding between really good value, or going heavier into therapy.

Instinct is the easier value play. Think upper middle luxury, around that Jacuzzi J345 level, but without all the dealer markup and marketing fluff. Good mix of large high flow therapy jets and standard jets, strong neck and shoulder seat, full foam, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, Balboa systems, all the stuff that actually matters long term. That tub lives in the $11k to $12k retail world normally, but because we drive insane organic traffic through HTU instead of spending millions on traditional advertising, it lands closer to the mid to high 8s delivered and installed.

That’s the whole magic trick. Same quality level, less overhead.

Now if your wife’s back issues are a serious priority, Twilight is a different animal. Same build quality, same insulation, same salt capability, same service network, but the jet package is nuts. It runs a much more expensive large high flow therapy system. Bigger jets, more flow, more actual muscle movement. It’s one of the strongest therapy tubs on the market right now without getting into silly luxury pricing. You’ll usually land somewhere in the low to mid 13s depending on model and setup.

For your space, I’d probably steer you toward:

Instinct Pure or Balance if you want best value and very solid therapy.

Master Twilight 7.2 or 7.25 if the back therapy is the priority and you want the bigger jump in massage performance.

And yes, Oregon absolutely matters. Cool damp climate means full foam insulation and a self supported shell matter more long term. Both Instinct and Master check those boxes properly.

On salt, most systems are dumb timer chlorine with higher salt and yo yo chemistry. Master’s system is on demand, lower salt, holds about 1 ppm steady. It’s the best salt setup in the industry right now. Instinct is salt ready, module drops in once released.

Once you jump into the Buyer Service, we’ll narrow the exact model together over text or phone before you pull the trigger. We keep your name out of dealer CRMs, get you better numbers through the same sellers, and back it with Buyer Protection if anything gets weird.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Thanks for the great info! Will be in touch soon.

Hey Brian,

At $6800 the Jubilee LS is not a scam, but you need to understand what you are buying.

Nordic is basically an entry level rotomold tub. The shell itself is cheaper to build, usually at least about $1500 less expensive than a true self supported acrylic shell. That savings has to come from somewhere.

The shell is thinner and flexier, which is why they still use the older two part jet housings instead of the newer compression fit systems. Compression fittings are more reliable long term, but the shell has to be rigid enough to support them properly.

Insulation is another weak spot. Even the upgraded Nordic insulation package is still pretty mid tier compared to a true full foam build. In a mild climate that matters less, but it still affects efficiency, structural support, and long term durability.

The jet package is mostly brochure fluff too. Small 2 and 3 hp pumps feeding a pile of little low flow jets. You usually end up with maybe a couple decent therapy jets and a bunch of tiny ones that feel spicy for five minutes but do not really move muscle mass. No real neck and shoulder therapy setup either.

Now compare that to something like the Instinct line.

For not dramatically more money, you move into:

Self supported acrylic shell

Full foam insulation

Compression jet fittings

Glued and clamped plumbing

Twin 4 hp pumps

Much stronger therapy jet package

Better cover

Delivered and installed

Salt ready for the upcoming module.

Was $12k in stores, now factory direct for my customers only delivered and installed for $8500 or the single pump version for 7500 if you can stretch the budget a bit its a much better buy

That is a completely different level of build.

So if the Nordic was dirt cheap, like throwaway cabin tub cheap, fine. But at nearly 7k, personally I think the value starts falling apart because you are getting very close to real acrylic spa territory.

I would much rather own an Instinct long term. No contest.

if the budget needs to stay down then lets look for a good newer model used tub, I can look at the area for you if you give me a town or zip

What climate are you in, and is this more for soaking or actual therapy?

I live near Green Bay WI. It will probably be more for soaking, but I could use some therapy as well. I have never owned a tub, so not sure what to expect. I would like to stay under 10k. Thanks for advice

“Here’s the Instinct story in plain English.

Instinct is built by the largest and oldest spa manufacturer in the US. Same core factory capability, same real build standards, same national service footprint. Self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, full foam, Balboa systems, real parts. Not stripped junk. Not Alibaba private label nonsense.

The reason the price shocks people is simple. We ripped out the dealer circus and most of the marketing overhead.

That exact level of build was sitting in retail stores around eleven grand plus delivery, plus cover, plus steps, plus whatever fake sale they were running that weekend. Instinct lands closer to the low eights delivered, installed, cover included, because the distribution model changed.

People hear that and think there’s a catch. There isn’t. The catch is usually the other way around. Most of this industry is bloated with marketing spend, giant dealer margins, rep commissions, trade show budgets, influencer nonsense, and endless showroom overhead.

The dirty little secret is this, if we had to buy traffic the normal way, this model wouldn’t exist.

To get this kind of volume through traditional spa marketing would cost millions. Literally millions just to get enough eyeballs. Radio, TV, paid search, dealer co-op ads, home shows, finance promos, Google clicks, all of it. The CAC in this industry is brutal.

The only reason Instinct works is because HTU built massive organic traffic. Hundreds of thousands of buyers watch the videos before they ever shop. They already know the build factors. They already know the gimmicks. So customer acquisition cost collapses.

That’s the whole game.

Instead of spending millions convincing people to walk into a showroom, we spend our time educating buyers. Then we route them to the same factories and service networks without all the extra mouths in the middle taking a cut.

That’s how a tub that used to effectively retail around eleven can land around eight three with delivery and install included.

And because it’s still backed by a real national manufacturer with real service infrastructure, you’re not gambling on some fly by night internet brand.

That’s the part most people miss.

Cheap tubs are cheap because the build is cheap.

Instinct is cheaper because the business model is lean. You need to spend $11-12k in store to get this level...

Big difference.you buy it right off the factory website, no options or extras always the same tub same color delivered and installed with a premium cover.

https://instinctspas.com/

Hi robert we just launched a site upgrade sorry our bad bill will reach out today

Hi Brandon,

The LSX 30 is a great tub, but I would not overbuy the massage pump story.

I have not personally been in that Special Edition yet, but in general this is a minor feature, not a deal maker. You already had strong flow control with diverter valves. If massage is the goal, most people run the therapy seats in high flow mode anyway.

Also, 3 pumps sounds better in a brochure, but it is not automatically better.

A strong 2 pump system with twin diverters can be better because two bigger pumps are usually more efficient than three smaller ones. With twin diverters, you can push a huge amount of water to the main therapy seat when you want it. The 3 pump pitch is usually “more pumps is better” and “dedicated pump for the main seat,” but that dedicated pump is often smaller.

So I’d judge this on price gap.

The LSX 700 is already a beast. Great shell, full foam insulation, good parts, good repairability, US built, privately held company. Master is one of the oldest builders in the world and the only one of the top 3 still privately held, which usually means better value and less corporate marketing tax.

If the LSX 30 upgrade is a small bump, fine. If it is thousands more, I’d be cautious unless you love that exact seat and layout.

What price were you quoted on the LSX 30 and the LSX 700?

I was quoted $16,995.00 for the LSX 700. Includes delivery, cover, steps, & start up chemicals. The LSX 30 was quoted at &18,995 with the same "extras".
As far as 3 pumps vs 2 I think both spas have 3 pumps already, the LSX 30 just replaces one pump with a variable speed pump for the massage feature. I can not find the sizes of the pumps, but I believe I was told on the LSX 700 that all 3 were 5 hp? Is this correct? Also from what I can tell the LSX 30 it is a bigger spa and the variable speed pump also works as a circulation pump for the QuietFlo water care system. Is this a true benefit?

I can process those deals with the same seller for you at better prices and cover you with buyers protection.

LSX 700 has a 6 a 4 and a 3hp pump, and always the large pump runs a low speed for the filtration unless you opt for the circ pump which i don't recommend.

What is it you want out of this tub? is massage therapy the goal? if so what part of your body needs it?

Get the private buyers service, it will be the best $99 you spend on this gig, we can jump on phone text or email go through things fast get your price better and when we put you back to the seller it will be with a done deal all the options and extras and we will save you money for sure esp on the extras and upgrades.

and we cover you after the sale, if you ever had a conflict with the seller you don't need to fight one on one you call me i deal with him for you shit gets fixed fast no one wants on the bad side of my volume of traffic :-)

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs