Hot Tub Buyers Guide

OK, first, the Marquis vector. Marquis is a pretty solid brand overall, but when it was acquired they closed the West Coast plant, and it's now part of Artesian Spas. Equity buyouts always drive prices up, and quality always drops, that's how equity operates. They no longer clamp the plumbing lines and they are $1500 more expensive for no reason other than corporate layering, costs, and marketing spend. In my opinion, the Vector series is not a good tub to buy. I had one in for review and we tore it apart. The flimsy jet faces really stopped me; they are cheap and I don't think they will stand up as reliably as the standard jets. That's just the beginning, though—they are a goofy one off design and if they discontinue that jet, you'll never get parts down the road. I'd go with one of their other models if I were buying Marquis, something with the standard CMP jet used on brands everywhere including the rest of the marquis line and the Artesian line.

What price?

Now to Bullfrog spas. They are well built overall but the shell is a cheaper cradle supported shell, which is the biggest part of the purchase. But there is something else here: The Clam is a low end jet package with all cheap, small, low-flow jets. There is no way this tub should be over $8k
What price are you seeing?

Look service is always a risk in any scenario, local service does not ensure good service. I have seen hundreds of cases of pissed off customers who bought locally.

The second part is that some brands, like Master and Artesian, are enginered for easy repairability, common conections and pparts that can be bought almost anywhere, everything is plug and play and parts can be swapped by anyone who can use a screwgun. Then there are brands that are intentionally non-compliant like Hot Springs, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Sundance. They have goofy connections and mounts and parts not to provide you a better experience but to lock you into the expensive dealer ecosystem.

But here is the real takeaway: No matter what you buy get us to introduce you to the seller first. Then they know you are under our buyers protection umbrella, that is you best guarantee of good service no matter what or how you buy. Normally if you have an issue, it's a one-on-one fight between you and the seller. But when we make the introduction they know you're in our buyer pool. If you have an issue, you're not going to fight with them; you're going to text me and I'm going to fight with them. My fight carries the weight of thousands of annual hot tub purchases and the very real power of a platform that has been running for 15 years and sees over 100,000 hot tub buyers a year! No seller wants to be on the bad side of that lol

I'll get Bill to reach out with pricing through that same seller you are talking to. We know the owners, so we skip the sales floor and go right to the top.

thanks for info, We have looked at lots of different tubs and the info you all share on here is 100% correct once you look behind the panels yo see the short cuts.

First I would stay away from round tubs, they are cramped and have no foot space.

You can not get a really well built tub below about $7500, you just have to cut corners, the math does not work. id go with a good used unit at $5g's, something easily repairable and reliable

This is not a real manufacturer, it's part of a growing trend we call virtual manufacturers. Here is the deal: these guys buy containers of hot tubs from China. Then they rebrand them as Platinum Spas and spin up all the marketing and brochures to make it look like they are a manufacturer. This is the worst case scenario and I would never recommend you buy a tub from a dealer who bought a tub from a rebrander who bought a tub from a manufacturer :-) they paid around $3k for that tub and now some spin artist is trying to tell you its worth $8k???

This is absolutely the worst case scenario :-)

Hi Carolyn.

Yes Master does make them and depending on what you are looking for some of the other lines from master might be your move, but here is the conflict.

The dealer can't sell you an Instinct spa, but if you buy it from the factory direct website that dealer will get the profit from the sale and they will deliver and install it. What you're running into here is one of a couple of possible things.

1. The salesperson you spoke to doesn't get the commission from the instinct sale, it's part of why the price is cheaper :-) When you look at any hot tub anywhere 30% of its cost is branding, marketing, advertising, brochures, sales commissions, and showroom floor space. That's reality: it costs that much to get a tub in front of enough people unless you do what they did, which was to build it to our spec and get us to put it in front of people because we don't need 30% :-) We already have most of the hot tub buyers coming here.2. Nobody makes as much money on the instinct as they would selling you a more expensive hot tub. There is significantly more profit in a $12k - $15k tub than in an $8500 hot tub :-) simple as that, a dealer is always going to push you up the ladder if they can, they make more money selling you a higher end spa :-) 
3. Some dealers don't get it :) Some dealers see Instinct as competing with them and reducing their profits, but they don't realise that they were never competitive in the sub-$10k hot tub world, that world was and still is dominated by cheap tubs sold by corporate mass merchant sellers. All those sales happen whether Instinct exists or not; that's what some dealers miss. The reality is Instinct allows them to compete in that market with a better built product and with better back up and support without added costs! In the real world, that is always a net gain for the dealer.

The next question is what you want out of this tub. While the Instinct is built just as well has a mid to upper end jet package, if your looking for a real high end massage spa in the $14k+ range then Twilight might be a better buy.

I'll get Bill to reach out to you; he can help nail down what tub, line and model will work best for you and help you get the prices dialed in :-)

I asked the person communicating with me why he didn't recommend Instinct Spas. He said they have "inferior jet packages". He said if I wanted a more affordable option (I had also requested information and pricing on 2 Twilight Series spas) he said I should look at Legacy Whirlpool line. This is our first spa. We have limited space and budget. It is for relaxation, not therapy. I think the Instinct Spa is what we want, but hate to purchase it without trying it.

Both Legacy and Instinct tubs come from the same builder and both tubs use the same jetting :-) even the jet count and sizes are similar, both are great tubs and both would be good buys.

Now if you are going to Twilight then he is 100% right the jet package is better on the twilight for sure.

did you get pricing yet?

Dominion spas is not a real manufacturer, stay away. these guys like so many others buy in containers of cheap $3500 hot tubs from China, rebrand them do new marketing brochures etc then sell them to dealers pretending to be manufacturers by they time you see them repackaged with cute slick branding they are twice what they are worth.

Instinct is made by master... shhhh... lol

ill get bill to reach out he know the local sellers and will get you better pricing on the master, or any other tub...

Thank you. The nearest Master Spa dealer for me is Ann Arbor, MI

Service is available near you for any of the good brands with standard construction. Honestly, dealers are an old, tired, and expensive mode of selling products. That's why, in the real world only a small amount of hot tubs are still bought this way something like 15-20% the rest are bought online or from mass merchants, etc.

That reality has been ongoing for a decade and with hundreds of thousands of hot tubs in the field with no dealers there is now a rich ecosystem of service companies that service hot tubs better, in most cases than local sellers :-)

I'm sure we can find you several good tubs from several good builders around there. We also have access to wholesale sellers and factory direct deals, and local sellers will give me better prices than they will to you :-)

The other advantage of getting us to help is that if you buy a hot tub from a local seller or online and have a conflict you are one on one with that seller, fighting a losing battle. If we are involved that seller knows that if you are unhappy you are going to reach out to me and under my buyer protection umbrella, I'm going to call him... That's a very different conversation because I'm not one tub from one buyer :--) I'm $30 million in annual hot tub buys and a platform that has so much hot tub buyer traffic that it could make the difference between survival, he is going to treat you very well...

I'll get Bill to reach out; he knows all the sellers and service people there and can point you in the right direction.

Master builds the Instinct, its just private labeled for Hot tub university customers exclusively, that's how we got the price down from the instore price of $11-$12k to $8500, we cut all the marketing, advertising, sales support etc.

Also for vertically challenged forget getting the right fit, its not going to happen without major tradeoffs, instead get a good weighted spa seat it will lift her up so that the jets hit her in the right areas.

NO

1- The only reason instinct spas is not $11-$12k is because the cost of dealer showroom space, marketing and advertising was removed. every other tub in this price range still has the 30% for the cost of that in it so when you see another tub at $8500 for instance it can not possibly be the build quality and jet package of Instinct because the ONLY way you can remove that cost and still get it in front of enough customers is if you were to find a unicorn like us that already has massive organic traffic, then partner with us to build it the way we demand...

Somewhere around 20% of hot tubs are bought through dealers, wet tests wont tell you much, in fact a lot of people make bad decisions because of a wet test. the problem is the cheap low flow jets "feel" aggressive and powerful because its a tiny stream of water under high pressure but there is no volume, so its really doing very little for long term muscle tension relief, then the large, expensive high flow therapy massage jets feel weak because its 10x more water flow so its spread out a lot more but it moves the whole muscle mass and for long term muscle tension relief its what will make the difference. other than that forget comfort seats etc once you are submersed you are floating...

not much difference in the base chemicals but if you want easy to manage water the spa marvel system is our best performer to date... here is a link for easy to manage water: https://youtu.be/rysiCHlKgg0?si=dXJLFyyeoVrgc0Cl

and here is the link tot he product: https://hottubuniversity.myshopify.com/products/spa-marvel-trio-kit

Your old hot springs was back before buyouts and relocation to Mexico and corporate slashing of build quality to augment marketing and price increases to cover dividends, its a shadow of the brand it once was.

A good well built tub can be dragged on a sled no issue, a cheap tub is going to suffer any and every move it makes... most tubs are delivered easily with 2 men and a drag sled or dolly. I've personally loaded, delivered, unloaded and handled thousands of hot tubs.

The key here is a solid self supporting shell with a good frame, and sealed sides, the base should not matter much because its sitting on concrete for gods sake, usually rot in side a hot tub is from leaks not out side water. Then a good reliable plumbing system using GFlue and clamps and compression fit housings, parts that are the top north American OEM stuff you can get anywhere. then they last and are repairable.

what's the budget?

Thank you. My budget is the same for a Hot Springs Beam or Caldera Tarino. Where ever I buy a hot tub, I am requesting 4 men, one on each side and not having a hot tub with a horizontal crack along the wood supporting base. . I heard the crack as the men were struggling to drag the 700 pound hot tub on its side across thick grass and stone walk way. I decided to not purchase the Jacuzzi J255 with reservations on the product. I went to a different higher end distributor/dealer and am now considering the Caldera Tarino due to size height and dimensions and also not wanting a 220 power outlet as I already have a 110 outlet in place. They are providing me with the higher end white glove delivery service with 4 to 5 men to move the hot tub to its final resting place and hopefully, this time unlike Hot Springs in the trash. I do like the exterior shell better on the Caldera, as it is stronger and thicker vs. the thin Hot Springs cabinet. I more than likely will not buy the salt system without the smart IQ system. The Tarino has salt ready but not the Smart IQ.. Thoughts on Salt vs Bromine (using floaters) ? Any other suggestions on brands I should consider before I lock myself in and purchase the hot tub? I used Bromine tabs in a floater for 20 years and did not have problem. I tested my water weekly and drained with fresh water every 1.5 months. I like clean fresh water and not overly processed water. My old spa did not have the finicky acrylic shells made today. I understand I am locked into proprietary parts , but I have the dealer repair department and this company has been in business for a long time with a large clientele bases with a very good reputation. Having a full repair department and parts is important with quick service-repairs. I understand Spas aren’t built like they were years ago which is really a shame. Thanks for your thoughts.

you will pay another 500 for that delivery and i don't mean to be funny its not a real thing that is needed, i have delivered an 8 footer on its side on a dolly including getting it off the trailer and laying it down flat by myself... 2 men is the delivery one bad delivery alongside thousands successful does not mean the method is flawed :-)

Caldera is hot springs, lol same factories in Mexico same corporate dogs same quality.

The new on demand salt system yes, caldera/Hot springs old timer based system no...

its hilarious that they price this on the site for $13k lol this is a basic tub worth 7-8k

Thank you for your advice and most appreciated,🥰 especially the thoughts on the true value of Hot Springs or Caldera. I am going forward with the Caldera tub, realizing it is the same company & same plant and slightly less fancy and dumbed down version off their lines. Basically a Cadillac compared to a Buick or Chevy. What is important is the construction, glued and clamped lines, and better made fiberglass shell and the not so good propriety parts scheme. I found a brand new tub, and the dealer told me they will deliver and not charge me extra with 4 men balancing the tub with the owner personally assisting in the safe delivery of the hot tub. They want to clear this tub along with the other Caldera show room floor models in their store. I showed them the 2 factory authorized franchise Hot Springs, botched delivery photos. They totally understood and empathized, I had TWO delivery failures, of which the distributor managed to destroy 2 brand new beautiful hot tubs. The Hot Springs distributor told me they could fix anything and not to worry. I bet that distributor has lots of experience repairing similar botched deliveries. They forgot one important legal point, I paid for a perfect hot tub and not a damaged hot tub and they twice Violated the Uniform Commercial Code, Perfect Tender Act damaging and delivering a new hot tub, of which I paid full sticker retail price. This would be similar to a new car dealer telling you they have the only available white car on the lot , however , a person taking a test drive earlier in the week, had a fender bender, but as the song goes, “don’t worry, be happy”and their body shop can repair anything! No one in their right mind would buy a new car, at the sticker price tag, and one involved in a car accident with a person hitting the side of the dealership building. 🙄 I appreciate the salt system info and totally agree. I do not plan on using the Salt System on the Caldera tub and unlike the Sister Hot Spring line, Caldera does not offer the smart IQ board.. As you said older version and basic tub. I plan on using bromine tabs, in a floater, of which I have used for 20 years without issue. Do you agree or disagree it will be acceptable and safe to use? Any system has corrosive potential and from what I have come to the conclusion after hearing all the sales pitches and reading from your very informative site, the key is keeping the chemicals balanced,, clean and within the safe operating limits, not over killing the hot tub with a chemical soup. Anything be it Salt, Bromine or Chlorine at high levels or with the other important chemistry levels out of line, causes damage to the functioning hot tub internally and the finicky acrylic shells. Today, I found as you suggested a great price on a new 2026 tub, priced before tax in the mid 9’s with tax and delivery, exactly near what you said is the true retail worth. This tub is a floor model no water ever placed in the tub and it was built in March of 26, with kfull factory warranty. I saw the model in person, no damage what so ever and viewed the inside of the tub with cabinet panels removed. When the dealer took the panels off, even the cord was still wrapped in the factory sealed bag and needed to be wired to the mother board. This store is shedding the the Caldera line and the hot tub comes with the full warranty. I spoke with Caldera and they stated they will stand behind the warranty, as it a new hot tub, within a still legal Caldera spa but one that is in the process of being terminated , yet Watkins in this instance has to stand behind this as a factory warranty hot tub as their contract has not been legally terminated. Watkins will then assign once registered on line to the new, territory protected local dealer and not to their happiness either. Unusual situation contractually. This entire exclusivity territory line scheme is a retail price fixing trap, giving the consumer basically 1 choice in their market place, where ever you live, eliminating competitive pricing, ensuring high profits and trapping the customer in their geographic area. Distributors can not cross geographic maps and sell outside of their territory or they will be penalized and lose their ability to sell in the market place. Many hot tub companies do the same thing another is..Jacuzzi with the exclusivity consumer scheme. Very sad to understand the background theory of the retail selling tactics of hot tub retail stores and their parent company. Thank you advising and now I know the tubs true retail value $7-8,000.00 of which with tax, delivery and a white glove delivery with 4 strong men (Superman, Batman, Hulk Hogan and Robin as a side kick) personally are delivering this hot tub with the best care possible. (Of course anything can go wrong and as the old saying things happen in 3’s..sure hope not or I will just give up and buy a blow up baby pool and forget the entire hot tub scene.) 😳😁 Thanks again for all the great info about hot tubs and your very helpful knowledge and suggestions. Let me know about using bromine tabs in a floater..

Awesome you won!

Bromine is fine and if you want to keep it really simple (bromine or chlorine) use an additive like spa marvel... see this video explainer, and tips and tricks video.

https://youtu.be/rysiCHlKgg0?si=uQBG-a3t-byHRfdo

you can get it here: https://hottubuniversity.myshopify.com/products/spa-marvel-trio-kit

Pop the sides off, find the wet spot.

Hi Silvia,

We want to talk about the enclosure, you don't want to restrict access to the tub for service!, we can help you with the layout and design.

What prices did you get, be careful people try and take advantage esp single or older folks like us lol

Its crazy all the sales nonsense, Hydropool is part of jacuzzi but its their cheap line and I would stay away, the best thing about the brand is the wonderful sales pitch wrapping up a mid end build and a pile of gimmicks.

Want me to get bill to reach out, he can chat about the enclosure and get the pricing down for you .

My courtyard is 94”x 134” right now I really need to know which brands I should be looking at for therapeutic. Who do you think are the best manufacturers? I would prefer made in the USA..seems allot have gone to Mexico. So is Artisan middle of the road?

Artesian is good, not top but certainly a good reliable brand overall, US made but equity investor owned so that means higher prices.

Master is really good, same general build as Artesian but they glue and clamp the plumbing whereas Artesian just glues. the Largest and oldest US builder and the last big player still privately held.

what budget are your working with?

My concern right now is not money but the best for my body..obviously want to get best price for what I am purchasing..the world is full of greed..I do not want to do stupid but I have money for the best…as long as it is the best for my body.

Yeah and almost all the hot tub companies have been eaten up by equity investment companies and that makes it 10 times worse, these corporate greed machines are killing this industry.

check you email, (the AOL one you gave us, bill will help you get better prices with your local sellers, guide you on finding brands around that are reliable and make sure you dont get taken for a ride on the prices... email should have hottubuniversity in it so just search your spam or inbox for that

Aquavoss is the no where land. they don't make anything but play themselves off as a manufacturer, they are basically a rebrander, they buy from a manufacturer, do the marketing and then resell to dealers who sell to you. There are a ton of these virtual manufacturers it always a great story but when you unravel the threads its a reseller...

Cal Spa is middle of the road, its a lower end cradle supported shell and unless you pay for the full foam upgrade its a low end insulation package. but the gig problem is the jets are all the cheapest low flow small jets you can buy, there is very little therapy value in this machine and a lot of the reason that twilight was a lot more expensive is it has a high end self supported shell that will last, a good top end insulation package and most importantly a lot of the high flow large expensive therapy massage jets that will really make a difference.

You have bounced from the top to the bottom.

right in the sweet spot would be the instinct spa. top end build with a heavy self supporting shell, glued and clamped plumbing, top end insulation and parts and $8500 for a 40 jet twin pump unit with a good mix of the larger high flow therapy jets.

You are unlikely to use a warranty in the first 3-5 years even on a well made spa, You can extend the warranty for about $500 to a 3 year but I would not bother, almost all warranty work is in the first 3-6 months, if there are no issues out of the gate you likely will not have issues for 5 years.

Thanks! One more question. The Vital model has the spa seat which my wife is leaning towards, but I am concerned about the issue of her floating that you mentioned in another article. Do you think this would be an issue with the Vital or should we go with the Instinct?

all loungers a more floaty than seats. but you can always get a good weighted spa cushion and put it in your lap to hold you down.

Which Ep model?

in general the Artesian would rate higher then the AW though neither clamp the plumbing lines opting for glue alone, the gold standard would be glued and clamped. the artesian beats it on insulation and framing, steel frames are noisy, they corrode esp. with chlorine or salt around, they also transfer heat really well, which on a cheaper perimeter insulation system like the American Whirlpool is bad, the timber frames are a lot quieter and thermally belter but are a an expensive pain in the production line. Also what prices are you seeing?

Hey sorry about that! obviously I screwed something up and posted it empty, damn i pine for the good old days when I could blame the computer hahaha

There is nothing in the quality of build range, features, jetting and performance anywhere near the $8600 price of the Instinct for a very real, non bullshit marketing reason... every price on every hot tub you ever see has 30% of that cost for sales, marketing, advertising, branding etc etc in it. There are NO EXCEPTIONS because if they don't bake that in the price not enough people see it and you don't sell enough :-)

A few years back when my traffic started getting crazy we issues the manufacturer challenge. it was simple... Build a tub to my spec, solid reliable no full, easy to fix and source parts for and well insulated and I would use my insane organic unicorn traffic to get it in front of the people... https://youtu.be/ona5_L1JSeI?si=5h1ADiiSML21JMMq (remember this was 6 or 7 years ago pricing has gone up but the idea is the same)

Well it took 6 years lol partially because no one believed my traffic numbers and those numbers just kept climbing!!! That the ONLY reason you can buy a tub of this quality at this price

There are no options that why the site seems simple, it is... the tub always comes in one color, delivered and installed with a dlx 5" cover.

Nothing can lower the price because there is no fluff in it, when someone can have a sale it just means there is high margin ahead of the sale, sales are bullshit for the most part. and its already covered with my buyers protection, you ever have an issue that is not being addressed through the seller you hit me up ill take the battle on for you and that is a very different conversation than the one on one buyers usually have to have when it doesn't go right :-)

As for running cost use and full foam tub of the same size with a 5" cover and also realize that your usage will dominate that cost anyway... What costs money on a well insulated tub (instinct is the highest r-value and most expensive insulation system you can get) is taking the cover off and using it, unused they are a couple hundred a year, most estimates are based on 20-40 minutes a week of usage you can triple or quadruple the numbers you see on any hot tubs estimated running cost buy high usage... taking the cover off in the winter would be akin to opening all your doors and windows in you house in February :-)

nothing has changed on the models for 2026

When you buy that tub, its direct from the manufacturer, that is who owns that web site, there is no middle man you are paying the facotry if it was in showrooms the price would go back up to $11-$12k like it was before it went factory direct...

Yer screwed, the deal was with the retailer and the retailer is gone.

First off salt systems vary widely, we were against salt because it was corrosive and was a timer based system so the system would make chlorine on a timer and if one week you used the tub a lot the sanitizer would get used up and the water would go off then the next week if you didn't use it the sanitizer level would get too high, this you-you water and corrosion issues made it not a great system, there were better easier, lower chem options like enzymes and other additives. the reality is it just wasn't worth the cost. The newer systems have changed that, 30% lower salt, and the biggest gain is on demand, the unit tests the water and then adds sanitizer only when needed, lasts longer, costs less and is easy to manage the water. Currently the best one by a long shot is the Master spas system, we beta tested it for a year, it blew us and every other slat system we have ever tested out of the water.

Hot Springs Caldera are not a horrible, they are decent mid grade tubs. But they are made in Mexico so with tariffs are over priced, they are corporate owned so more money on the price tag and more money into marketing branding etc. over build, they use a ton of goofy non compliant connections and parts which are there for one reason only, to lock you into the expensive dealer eco system, they are boomer brands, the push should be towards easily repairable reliable products not engineered failure points and high proprietary overpriced parts.

These brands are ranked in the upper mid with consumers, there are loads of good, bad and mid rankings but the reality is most reviews are fake, its a fact, in some studies (Forbes etc.) up to 70% are fake. the big corporate owned brands spend a lot for social reviews to both review companies and to influencers and bloggers. If the ranking you care about is verified-review infrastructure on the brand's own site — which is the real competitive story — the order is basically: Master Spas (verified widget, per-model, with counts) → Hot Spring / Caldera (first-party self-collected, moderated, not independently verified) → Bullfrog / Artesian (curated testimonials) → Jacuzzi / Sundance (nothing on-site). Only Master Spas can point to an independent verification layer, and even Hot Spring's "real owners" reviews are collected and gated by Watkins itself.

These are the big 3 builders, hot springs is largest Jacuzzi 2nd master is 3rd worldwide but the largest US builder.

Master Spas Trustpilot upper Mid, ConsumerAffairs upper, BBB A+
Hot Spring/Caldera Trustpilot low, ConsumerAffairs mixed-negative
Jacuzzi/Sundance Trustpilot low, ConsumerAffairs negative

When it comes to massage its all about the jet size, ignore everything else, here is a video explainer, https://youtu.be/pn2rdgv8yOc?si=kWJuVhE9q6bjuE9X

There are several good brands, id look at jacuzzi, Master, artesian but a lot depends on the budget, Ill get bill to reach out with some local options.

Thank you so much for your insights. I'll look forward to hearing from Bill.

Kind Regards

Way easier, its the lowest salt level and the most automated on demand system out there.

You buying a hot tub?

I am buying a hot tub soon. Would it be better to buy a Sundance since there is a local dealer or would it be ok to get a Master Spa twilight series despite the fact that the nearest dealer is 2 hours away? I am thinking about support after the sale. I live in Cedar Rapids, IA and the nearest Master Spa dealer is in the Des Moines, IA area. Why do Master Spa dealers have such a large geographic area?

The reality is that local is more about the brand than it is about the distance. Sundance intentionally make parts connection points obscure so you are locked into the dealer eco system.

Both are good well made brands but the Country of origin and the ownership does make a difference.

But with the Jacuzzi group (Investindustrial equity owned) its a shit dhow of layers of cost, driven by corporate layers and huge marketing budgets, these guys and their ilk drive prices up because they know that marketing is king, and dividends are expected.

So the reality is they will both be good buys, they will last, but the cost to maintain with proprietary connections will be higher and you will pay more for no real value.

master does not do compressed dealer area based on geographics they do limited dealer with support, service structures across the US.

different model different model different game, both are good reliable brand, one comes with the weight of expensive proprietary parts, Mexico tariff costs and parts issues. The other comes with US made, readily available parts and high repairability.

neither will be a shit show, what is your budget and what pricing do you have?

The reality is the frame of the hot tub isn't affected much by the environment the failure is leaks inside the tub which is worse even than the Florida environment because its chlorinated! If you get a tub with a good ABS bottom pan with a good Vinyl skirt that overlaps and is well fit you have nothing exposed to the local environment that can deteriorate. with the big builders there is a high level of consistency and everything is made on a jig so it fits tightly together which should deter critter invasion.

What are oyu hoping to spend? we can get well built reliable tubs that fit that mix from $8500 to $20k

The tubs we’ve seen and liked at local dealers (Jacuzzi, bullfrog, hot spring, caldera and master spa) have trended toward the higher end of that range. $16k to +$20k.

There is also an Artesian dealer nearby but I haven’t met with them yet.

Jacuzzi, master and Artesian are the best of that lot.

The Master beats the jacuzzi and Artesian a bit because jacuzzi just clamps the plumbing with no glue, artesian glues with no clamp, Master Glues and clamps. Higher plumbing reliability score.

The Calder/Hot Springs is the same company, like the jacuzzi they are made in Mexico and corporate owned so the price is higher then the Artesian or Master that are US built because of tariffs, and corporate layering, marketing also drive their numbers up so expect about $1500 higher pricing for similar jet packages. What models are you focusing on? is the massage an important aspect? if so what parts of your body?

Remember when it comes to massage sales people are gonna go on about pump size and some magic jet, ignore it... all the jets perform similarly but do not ignore the size of the jet, its the biggest cost and quality effector for the massage. Big jets are expensive high flow therapy massage jets they can run $100 each small jets are cheap low flow jets and feel aggressive but do little for long term therapy massage. https://youtu.be/pn2rdgv8yOc?si=kWJuVhE9q6bjuE9X

What are your thoughts regarding Marquis?

In regard to therapy, we’d focus on feet, back/lower back, hips. glutes, neck, hamstrings.

In regard to brands/models:
Artesian Elite - Quail Ridge
Master Spa TS 7.2, Balance 7
Marquis - Epic
Jacuzzi - J335

Thank you!

Marquis was acquired a few years back along with Artesian and they closed the west coast factory and moved the whole lot to the Artesian Vegas plant, they are ok overall and the Quail ridge has a mixed jet package with a lot of the small cheap jets and a handful of the larger expensive high flow therapy jets. set of therapy jets, but they stopped clamping the plumbing lines :-( the layout is the big issue, that lounger is so short its pretty much useless, and it tight and cramped.

Artesian Elite - Quail Ridge Jet package is second of these choices, shell is good, insulation is good, plumbing reliability is mid with glue only, it is made in US but equity investor owned so over priced a bit.
Master Spa TS 7.2, Jet package is top by a long way of these choices, shell is good, insulation is good, plumbing reliability is top with glue and clamps on the lines made in US and privately owned so so pricing is the best.
Balance 7 Jet package is mid, insulation is good, plumbing reliability is top with glue and clamps on the lines made in US and privately owned so so pricing is the best.
Marquis - Epic Jet package is second of these choices, shell is good, insulation is good, plumbing reliability is mid with glue only, it is made in US but equity investor owned so over priced a bit.
Jacuzzi - J335 Jet package is low to mid with mostly cheap smaller jets, shell is good, insulation is good, plumbing reliability is mid with clamps only, it is made in Mexico and equity investor owned so the pricing is way over what it is worth, also full of proprietary parts so difficult to repair and costly to maintain.

You have prices yet?

Overpriced middle of the road build and insulation. Look I love supporting mom and pop shops but here is the uncomfortable truth. The industry has been dominated by equity and corporate buyers small guys cant compete because the lack the buying power and economy of scale so they have to cut corners to stay competitive, there is no small regional guys that I can recommend as a best case. there are few of these guys left and they will all be acquired or gone soon, which adds the risk of owning a product you can get fixed anymore.

what model and price are you seeing?

We can get that number down for you through the same seller, ill get Bill to reach out to you.

I love this tub. its all the right stuff with nothing spent on marketing branding advertising etc, the sales funnel is clean and efficient and that makes it 30% less than anything of a comparable build. You just order it off the site, we already did the work with the builder on this line and they pay for your buyers protection service and that means if you have unresolved issues you reach out to me and ill get things moving for you. Ill get bill to reach out so you have a touch point for assistance and questions. but tits easy, there are no options, every tub comes one color, delivered and installed with a cover and we can help you with extras like lifters etc at wholesale pricing.

Ok first off a warning the smart tops are a mess, we sold 20+ of them and the failure rate after 3 years was 100% it was a very bad experience and customer satisfaction on them was bad.

American whirlpool is no where near a $20k tub, its a cheap steel frame, low end perimeter insulation and no clamps on the plumbing, the jet package is middle of the road, there are only 9 of the expensive larger high flow therpay massage jets and loads of the cheap small low flow jets, the neck and shoulder jetting are all small low flows and the foot dome is only the midflows, this is a $12k tub not a 18k

Bullfrog is better built with the exception of the shell which unfortunately is a lower end cradle supported shell and those jet packs are a pain int he ass to clean and maintain, its a bad design riddled with issues and a ton of band-aid fixes over the years.

these are both smaller mid end builders you can afford the top stuff from the big three at these prices.

what is it you want? chill space? massage therapy? and if it massage what parts of the body are the targets for you?

We absolutely loved the Sundance Optima that we had. If there was a dealer close for service that would be what we prefer. I am located just north of Charlotte, NC. After the wet tests, the American Whirlpool is out. It is funny that we went to a store and they have Hot Springs and American Whirlpool. The store manager steered us away from Hot Springs almost immediately.

We actually tried almost every different Bullfrog jet packs and found 4 that we really like. I am concerned about the filtration on the Bullfrog. I don't like that it does not have a top water skimmer. The jetpacks feel cheap, but they did their job pretty well. I don't think they were as powerful as our Sundance. It was a very comfortable tub, and they are doing a Costco special next week where we can get an A7SE for $10,900.

We are definitely interested in massage therapy. My wife wants something that hits shoulder blades. I want lower back and hips.

One more thing. I called the closest Sundance Dealer. They are about an hour and 1/2 away. He said that they would deliver and service the spa. They would not charge a trip charge if we ran into any issues. He said that he could do a Sundance Optima for $21,200 (That includes Tax, delivery, cover, cover lifter and stairs) or he could do a Sundance Chelsea for $16,500(That includes Tax, delivery, cover, cover lifter and stairs). We are planning to drive up and test out the Chelsea and the Optima.

Sundance is a better option for sure, but there whack a doodle out to lunch on the price. the made in Mexico is killing them between shipping and tariff costs, the optima build is good and with that jet package really should be a $15k tub, but since you bought your last tub they were acquired by equity investment, moved to Mexico and we have heard rumors that they are going to cheap steel frames and perimeter insulation on some models. Chelsea is a low end jet package its should be in the $11-12k range for the same build and jet package. Equity buyout always means two things, they cut quality and cost of production, layer on heavy marketing and jack pricing up.

The filtration and pressure on the Bullfrog jet pack series is real, there are 3 reason why. first they went to loop jetting, it saves a lot on the plumbing cost but its much more efficient to split the water up into 20 of the 3/4" lines right away at the manifold, much less resistance and better flow rates, plus they had a big issue with bacteria behind the jetpacks so they had to add jets back there to try and get some flow, it didn't work well there is still a lot of build up behind them and they need regular removal and cleaning, its a big job and the tub needs higher chemical levels to deal with the growth. And it lowered the flow rate even further. they are a mess I would not spend my money there.

If you want massage its all about the larger high flow jets, small jets are cheap low flow and feel aggressive but do little, they also make your skin itch Large jets are

Thanks for the information. It sounds like you are not really a fan of any of the options, you especially don't seem to like the Bullfrog. We are going to do a wet test on the Sundance Spa's. So you think that 12k for the Chelsee is a reasonable price? You say the Optima should be a $15k tub, but if tariff's are high what do you think is a reasonable price on an Optima that the dealer will take? What spa should I look at other than Sundance, Bullfrog, Caldera, Hot Springs and American Whirlpool? There are no Master Spa dealers in my area.

I don't dislike bullfrog, it in my top 10 but in my world you have to look at the specs and the money. the shell is their downfall, its a lower end system, and the jet packs are a gimmick, they did it to separate themselves and create a marketing selling point but they have created a whole world of other issues, it was cute but not revolutionary.

Yes $12 k on a a Chelsea is reasonable but it not the best buy at that price.

Look dealers will tell you its critical to have a local seller but that's 15 year ago thinking, Sundance needs a strong dealer because they intentionally make parts, and connection points non compliant, that's not good for a buyer that's good for a seller.

The reality of what a dealer will take is based more on local market conditions than on value. In the North Carolina area you are isolted a bit so what matters more is "can i get the parts"

Dude this is not a rocket, its a tub with some pumps, these guys make it sound like it so hard and they make it hard by making parts hard to get and not standard, get a tub that has easily sourced parts and any asshole with a screwdriver can fix yer tub, tie yerself into a goofy proprietary build and you will spend more up front and down the road for the same thing.

Thanks for the feedback. This has been very interesting and helpful. The information on the smart top was interesting as well. We were definitely planning on buying one, but won't now.

First off Bullfrog is a decent brand but the main downside is they use a cheaper cradle supported shell, the shell is the most expensive and important part of any hot tub and IMHO I would not buy a hot tub that didn't have a solid hand rolled fiberglass shell that is self supporting.

The jet packs are another downside, They have been riddle with issues and now are a patchwork of band-aid fixes, the problem stems from the lack of water circulation behind the jet packs, they tried to fix it by stealing water from the jets and flowing it behind the seats but that not only cut the water pressure way back but it also didn't really solve the issue, they are hard to clean and because of the higher bacteria load caused by the jet packs they need higher sanitation levels.

If you dead set on the brand then the X series by far is the better tub overall, efficient, reliable manifold plumbing, and better flow rates and overall reliability, but $11500 is on the high side. compare that to the Instinct spa which has a better shell, the same heating and control system, same glued and clamped plumbing and full foam insulation delivered and installed for $8600.

Were you looking at 7 or 8 foot models?

I was looking for either 7 or 8 foot models, honestly I think leaning more towards the 8 foot model. I actually just wet tested both tubs and really liked the jet pressure better in the A8 vs the X8. The X8 to get more pressure to one seat you have to shut off the others basically completely. It was also nice to shut off other jet paks not using and I felt like it had more room. So far it is the tub I have liked the most and have a 5 year 100% parts and labor warranty. The dealer also has a good reputation around my area. They did not have many other brands and it is fairly limited for dealers that are close to me, I don't want to have to drive an hour away. I am located near Flint, MI. I am a little worried about the cradle support now. Is it something that will last for atleast 10 years? Is there something that can be done to help with the jet pak issues? I appreciate it.

I want to ask you this because wet tests are misleading, the jets that "feel" aggressive and are often by first time users considered a sign of a good massage jet are the cheap little low flow jets. they are high pressure but its a tiny stream of water that does little for long term muscle tension. The jets that are really effective for keep muscle tension lower are the large expensive high flow jets because they move the whole muscle mass... The number of people who fall for the tub with the cheap small jets because they feel stronger is high. https://youtu.be/pn2rdgv8yOc?si=EvVOuirDNneIZEye

Also most people don't buy from dealers, its a dated boomer era sales layer that adds nothing of value anymore if you get away from brands that use proprietary parts and go to tubs that are built to be repairable and reliable, fewer than 20% of tubs are bought through dealers anymore. 20 years ago there was no choice, now? there are service people everywhere and the really well made stuff you can can get parts delivered next day from amazon and install in minutes with a basic tool kit. the dealer layer adds thousands... look d=for instance at the X7 and Instinct... both tubs when in dealerships were $11-$12k as soon as instinct stripped out the marketing layer and went factory direct it dropped to $8600 delivered and installed with a cover! nothing else changed.. so now you got $3k in your pocket and it has a better shell, and the same parts and build as the X7 everywhere else.

Hey David, the Dr Welness stuff is cheap low end spas I would not have it on my short list.

What kind of budget are we trying to hit? prices have gone up since last year like everything the tariff cost is real.

One new player in the game that's killing it right now is Instinct spa at $8600 for a solid well built well insulated 40 jet tub delivered and installed no one can touch it right tubs built like this are $11-$12k in stores and its backed by our buyers protection service.

Sure beachcomber is good, but buy the leep model the hybrid is dumb tech,

did you get pricing yet?

Yes $16,500.
360 AE Hybrid 4.

That pricing is very high, look at that tub, they call it 100 jets but its a gimmick, they count every hole in the jets while everyone else in the world counts a jet as one jet not 10 lol this is a low performance basic tub with around 25 jets! $16500 is what you would pay for a 40 or 50 jet tub from comparable builders. Costco sells the beachcomber similar model for $10k

Also double check that that model has a removable skirt, on some of their lower end units the skirt in non removable and that's a nightmare for service down the road.

Beachcomber is decent build but the pricing needs to be in the real world and they are not high end therapy massage spas, the jetting is basic mid to low end.

Both tubs have glued and clamped plumbing lines, you might be looking at the large 2" high flow lines those cant be clamped and are a different type of pipe and connection, the lines that you clamp are the 40 lines that go from the manifolds tot he jets.

Which master where you looking at?

The reality is the small guys like QCA cant really compete anymore, they lack the economy of scale and the buying power to to be price competitive so they have to cut a lot of corners, its a lower end shell, No clamps on the plumbing, low end insulation system and the jetting is mostly the cheap small low flow jets with few if any of the large high flow therapy massage jets.

What model and what pricing are you looking at?

Yeah the expos can be a lot!

You don't need t drive anywhere, we can get you better pricing that you will on your own on any brand, the sale still goes through the same sellers but they know your attached to us so the service level will be a lot better because they know that if its not your going to come to us and we will deal with them for you :-) that's the power of buyers service we run because we don't represent a single hot tub we represent thousands of them and have the unique ability to get things done because at the end of the day being on our good side and taking care of our customers is good for them and you.

The service level is pretty easy, there are service people everywhere now for standard build with the good redily available parts, its when you get into the big goofy corporate brands that you need a dealer because they make everything with goofy connection points so you have no option but to go tot the local dealer.

The Eco pure system is a basic ion system and it does help but its oversold like most of the chem reduction systems.

Ill get bill to reach out with better pricing, there is no cost to you the seller will pay us ironically enough for the buyers protection service that will in the end ensure you have good after sales care, if you don't, then instead of a one on one battle with the seller you simply hand it off to us we will have a very simple effective conversation and things will move.

Both are good brands with big differences, Hot springs is now owned by a corporate giant and the pricing is high for the simple jetting, they also use a lot of goofy connections etc.

But the big takeaway is the pulse is no where near the performance of the grandee or the twilight!

its all about the jets, the Pulse is mostly the small cheap jets, the twilights jet package is all high flow larger therapy massage jets you would have ot go to the grandee for that kind of performance and even then it would be a lower cost jet package.

what kind of pricing did you get from the sellers?

Thanks for your response. We received a price of $17,999 for the Pulse and $21,995 (Expo pricing) for the Twilight 8.25.

those are too high, tell me the area you live in i likely know the sellers ill call and get the pricing down for you.

IL get Bill to reach out by email, there is no cost for the service, the deal is the seller instead of paying staff or commission will pay for your buyers protection service, and that means if the seller doesn't give you good service instead of a one on one battle you hit me up and ill deal with the owners and get things fixed fast :-)

Thanks Chris for the additional information. We live in the Hamilton area.

Grew up in Grimsby, and went to Orchard park High in Stoney Creek :-)

What a small world Chris, we live in Ancaster. 😀
Thanks again for your help and all the great information you have posted on your site. I look forward to receiving an email from Bill. Have a great day.

You need a dealer with hot springs because its all goofy proprietary parts, its massively overpriced, the Instinct has a better shell, better plumbing, better jetting and better parts, all the parts are the top US available everywhere, its what the industry uses except goofy brands trying to lock you into their ecosystem. Fewer than 20% of hot tub buyers go through dealers anymore, you get a $9k tub for $14k on the back of fearmongering that a local dealer is needed. the reality is if you have a well built spa you will never use the warranty, and out side of warranty something like instinct that has easy to source parts that are plug and play anyone can swap parts and you can get the parts anywhere.

Plus Master guarantees the service anywhere in the US there are service people around and if you ever have an issue hit me up ill get you sorted out and I respond... always within a half day or so...

want me get to get Bill to reach out with more info?

Yes please... that would be great.

Polar is a sub brand they don't make them they make cedar tubs. this line is a cheap imported line likely from China with their own branding wrapped around it to pretend they make them, not where i would spend my money :-)

Coast was on our okish list but not anymore the quality has dropped dramatically and the HD foam is only part of the nightmare.

ill get bill to check the local scene and pricing and reach out to you

Bueno spas don't use a self supporting shell, or clamps or full foam but sub $7 k there as good as it gets, they do have a high automation level which means fewer errors, I actually don't recommend buying new at this price point used is better if you find a good tub

what's the budget?

If you give me an area I can check local listings

Ok, so no Bueno! Thanks for the info! Would like to stay under 10k, and i am in Central Virginia! Would appreciate any help, as I am so not confident in finding a good pre-owned tub on my own!

$10k is the danger zone, most stuff in the sub $10k mark is just junk.

The only tub sub $10k with the top 5 things is Instinct spas, and its covered by my buyers protection service, which simply means if the service isnt to scratch dont even bother fighting with anyone, just hit me up and ill fight with them lol, its very effective and guarantees you a top service level.

They use fully self supporting shells, they glue and clamp the plumbing lines, they use top end full foam insulation, readily available top of the line parts, and compression fittings.

https://instinctspas.com/

i always loved the TS 7.25/8.25 with the twin monster jets, i would sit behind them do my calfs, back of thighs, glutes and lower back on them... killer.... and you can control the flow from zero to a full 6hp pump.

what's your budget?

I don't know. Things a little pricier now than my hottub purchase Pre covid. Maybe 20k Canadian?

ill get bill to reach out with pricing for you from the local sellers for a few options.

The Artesian is a better built better insulated spa.

Steel frames are not a plus they are a cost cutting measure, they are noisy, have bad thermal properties and corrode in a chlorine environment. but they are cheap and fit into an assembly line easily, its why all the cheap brands use them, the good brands use timber frames because they are more than strong enough, quiet, good insulators and survive the environment better.

what prices did you get foe which models?

Hi there and thanks for the reply. Good info to know ! I assumed a steel frame would be a sign of better quality as I’d have concerns a wood frame would warp and twist in a humid environment…

Both tubs are well priced, the 62S at $ 11,000 CAD and the 748B at $ 11,800.

I read a previous review of yours where it mentioned the jets on the Artesian spas now have a “surefit” system instead of the more reliable glued and clamped. That along with the face that Sunrise has a solid reputation and built in Ontario was making me feel like the 62S was the better pick.

This gives me more to consider for sure.

The Dimension one is a risk, they are no longer in business that's a hard pass in My opinion, its was a decent brand but nothing special, what model is it?

Hot springs is an interesting brand made in Mexico, and owned by the Masco corporation, the price is really high for what you get the Moto massagers are just 2 jets on a hose that flop around in a track, noisy, high failure rate, and gimmicky, then most of the rest of the jets are the small cheap low flow jets. The overall build is ok but these big corporate brands are bad at making things non compliant so they own you for ever for parts a much higher prices. also you really need a good dealer with these guys because although you have several good service companies around you they wont touch these tubs because the parts are hard too get expensive. here is a more through review if your interested. https://www.hottubuniversity.com/hot_spring_spa_brand_review

Master Twilight spas have the most expensive jet package of any brand out there and they are well made with standard top end north American parts. when it comes to massage forget the sales patter about the brand of jets or the horsepower trust me there is little to no difference in modern jet performance, but do pay attention to the size of the jets!!! little jets are cheap low flow and do little, big jets are 10x more expensive and flow a lot more water, these high flow therapy jets make a massive difference in massage quality and cost of the tub.

Bullfrog is between the two, pretty good build and like the master made in the US but the shell is a lower end cradle supported shell which drops them down in the list and those jet packs are a gimmicky problem riddled with issues and band aid fixes.

The other big thing is the pricing is too high... We can get you better prices through the same sellers on any of the brands there...

Ill get Bill to reach out with better pricing on those and any other tubs you want to look at, the other benefit is we not just get your pricing better we also back you up with the buyers protection service, when we hand you off to a seller they know who we are and they know that nearly 80% of hot tub buyers come though our site before buying a hot tub, they also know that if they don't take good care of you your going to hit us up and then we are going to call them and apply pressure , no one wants on the bad side of our volume of traffic :-)

I would appreciate better pricing on the Master Spa Twilight 8.2. Thank you.

Bills working on it but he is in hospital so this weekend might be slow to respond, Monday I'm sure he will have it sorted out.

Ok so first off lets talk about hot tub jets! the big jets are expensive high flow therapy massage jets they feel good and do a lot for long term muscle tension relief, most tubs have 4 or 5 then some mid flow and then a bunch of the cheap small low flow jets. the little ones are like being poked with a pencil, its a really small stream of water under high pressure. So if you want good feeling productive massage get a tub with lots of the large high flow jets like a a twilight series or a J-400 or Artesian Elite. Of all the well made brands the Twilight has the most expensive jet package of any tub on the market.

Now lets talk about service, first of all your in a heavily built up area and the master dealer that covers that area is a big dealer and they have service teams that cover that area. but the really big guarantee is me :-) i can help get you pricing down, and that will save you some money up front on any of the brands out there, but that's just the bonus, the real value is that no matter where or what you buy when the seller knows we are involved they know that your under our umbrella, and they know that if they don't take care of you your gonna call us and were going to call them... This is a big difference because you are one person with one hot tub, Im 120,000 yearly hot tub buyers and thousands of hot tubs, Nobody wants on the bad side of that kind of influence :-)

Im gonna get Bill reach out to you he can get you pricing without getting you mired into the sellers sales bullshit and make sure you get the right options and extras without getting gouged.

Not Really, there all pretty basic, what tub is it and did you buy any of the onboard chem reduction systems?

I purchased the Vital Instinct. Only what is included with the basic product offering.

ok you have the ozone system then, ill get Guen to reach out she can get good prices on lifters steps chems etc.

not needed but a good idea, cover lifters make it easier to open and close and extend the life of the cover, Ill get Guen to reach out with some options.

Hey My main man Bill lives in Nova Scotia :-) i have a place in fletcher lake...

Sunrise was great back in the day but the equity buyout left it a shadow of its former self...

You don't have to go anywhere there are all the major brands there master, Jacuzzi, Bullfrog, Wellis all those are pretty solid options, ill get bill to reach out with pricing we know the owners of all the locations there i had a retail store in Halifax for 15 years before I sold it :-)

Sounds great. I am on Porters lake

Right under the touchpad is the main control system and electrical connection but the cable can be brought in anywhere and routed around inside the cabinet to the box.

Ok there is a gentle piece of advice and a full on warning here.

First reconsider the double lounger idea unless you are a second time buyer who knows they loves loungers. First time buyers often buy loungers because our dry land experience but that does not transition well into a water environment. fewer than 15% of second time buyers will buy a lounger. You float, they are not comfortable in a water environment because your always fighting to stay in them and they take up a lot of usable space.

Second is the "Manufacturer" Luxury Spas. The big take away here is it is not even a manufacturer its what we call a Rebrander or virtual manufacturer, and its the worst possible scenario... These guys buy truckloads of cheap tubs from China, then they redo the marketing, branding brochures change the names and pretend they are a manufacturer, they then sell to retailers who sell to you at 4x the price they paid, its a mess your buying from a guy who is buying from a fake builder who is buying cheap crap from China there is no scenario where that is a good decision... if you want to throw money away on landfill at least go direct to Alibaba and buy it for $2k then you want feel so bad when it falls apart :-)

one last thing why so small? is it a space restriction? small tubs are cramped, shallow and water environments are all about space.

What budget are you working with?

I have a small patio, 12 ft. by 9.5 ft and a small budget of 6 K or less Can you recommend anything that would at least last a few years and have enough jets. Buying for therapeutic reasons

Its a tough price point to hit but id say the best in the sub 7k area would be bueno, if you can stretch to $7500 then the Natural Instinct is one of the best built tubs out there at any price, its factory direct from the largest manufacturer in the US and the only reason it got to that price is we got to strip out the 30% marketing budget that every other tub on the market has to bake into the price for marketing, branding, etc. because its just for our customers and with our volume of traffic we didn't need to pay for exposure. it was 11-$12k in stores before we got it factory direct... https://instinctspas.com/products/natural-instinct

Or i can search your area for good used units if you give me a town or zip code

Calspas is mid end in general the shells despite the bullshit marketing are mid end cradle supported shells and having toured the factory personally I can tell you that the "steel" re-enforcement is strictly marketing bullshit, those strips are so thin it was a joke. its not a nightmare brand, made in the US and privately held which is a good start. the insulation is low end unless you buy the upgraded full foam package.

The patio series has a very low jet package and pump power and prices should be $4-$5k max

Which model are you looking at and did you get a price?

calspa models ppz-533L and ppz-634L.am waiting for quotes including ozonator ,external hand rail attachment, and lift hinged top that is stored on the side of the tub. We are in our late 70's with back issues. We have had a tube before with a lounger.I agree with your comments but really like the lounger position for my back. i am not married to Cal Spa but we are located in western Oregon. Closed foam is an option on some models but i do not know if available on these two.
I have also been unable but am asking about the T500 control, specifically its program features, including if it can program the time and temp and duration of the low speed circulation with heater. The brochure only says 24/7 low speed. We are not interested in a tub full of jets, fancy programming features and think we like the 34in height versus 37-40" on larger tubs. We would like to stay under 8K
Given the above parameters which brands/models would you recommend?

I have received the following price information.
Cal Spa PPZ-533L:
Retail Price: $12,171.00
Emerald Outdoor Living's Price: $8,345.00

Cal Spa PPZ-634L:
Retail Price: $12,414.00
Emerald Outdoor Living's Price: $8,690.00

24/7 Filtration Pump: $472.50 After 25% off.
Leisure Concepts Covermate I Lift System: $222.00 After 40% off.
Leisure Concepts Safe-T-Rail II: $231.00 After 40% off.
ozonator - pricing yeet to be received

All spa purchases come included with:
Spa Cover
Free Standard Delivery and setup on elevated 3ft high deck (no electrical installation)
Start-Up Chemical Kit (Typically lasts around 2-4 months)
Both 533L & 634L models come standard with the Gecko YE.3 w/ in.k330 LCD control panel.

OK this pricing is way out of line, that 533 is a small tub with 2 of the expensive large hi flow therapy massage jets and then a bunch of cheap low flow jets.

Even if this was a top builder doing all the right things like jacuzzi, Master artesian etc it would still be too high :-)

This seller is quoting the regular price as if its some heavily discounted price. not just the spa either, full pop for a circ pump should be around $500 (not that I would recommend buying a circ pump) the Covermate 1 can be bought for $199 online at a dozen place full pop same with the safty rail. the cover is a low end 4" cover as well and they have the downgraded perimeter insulation system.

For comparison The Instinct spa built By the biggest builder in the US and one of the oldest hot tub companies out there Is larger that the , has more jets but also more of the expensive large high flow jets, a better self supported shell, the same control and heating system and a $500 upgraded insulation package plus glued and clamped plumbing and compression fit jets all making it a much more reliable, repairable tub can be had delivered and installed with a premium 5" cover for $8500 this tub easily has over a grand in upgrades and is backed my my buyers protection which ensures you will have a good service experience... https://instinctspas.com/products/vital-instinct

A year ago I would have said no way :-)

But 5 years ago we started pushing builders to build a tub just for our customers to our specification with heavy grade self supported shell, full foam insulation, clamped and glued plumbing and easy to source plug and play top end parts. You see we have a unique world where 15 years of constant advice has built us a following and reputation that draws over a hundred thousand hot tub buyers a year organically! That's insane it would cost a couple million dollars a year to get that many buyers to come. so we can take a tub that's retailing for $12k in stores and strip out all the dealer costs, marketing, branding sales etc the 30% that is built into every tub on the market whether its online factory direct or whatever they cant escape the millions a year in marketing costs :-)

Last year Master built the Instinct line factory direct for our customers its delivered and installed build like a tank and covered by national service, but its also dead easy to get parts for and to repair, trues plug and play parts that last and a robust plumbing system that will be reliable fr decades :-)

Its also covered by my buyers protection service so if there is ever an issue with service etc you hit me up and ill make things move fast, no one wants on the bad side of this much exposure and everyone will be very careful to make sure you have a good experience because they dont want me on the phone.

As for low chemical you can use the spa marvel enzyme system and get to less than 1ppm or this tub is salt ready and the new on demand salt system plugs in and away you go, automatic dosing and easy low chem.

https://instinctspas.com/

Thank you.
I got a quote for a Sundance spa 2025 model yesterday...no bad at 12k. 780 series...tell me more about the way the Instinct purchase works...and service...thx!

How do we find out about one of these? We’re looking for a well-built spa that is worth the money—seen too many friends burned by slick brochures.

Yeah Sundance is the exact same build as the Instinct, both have good self supported shells, full foam, good timber frames glued and clamped plumbing and they even use the same heating and control system from Balboa! these guys and jacuzzi are in my top 3 brands right now.

The instinct when it was through retailers was $11-$12k as well.

The differences are this: the instinct is made in the US, direct from the factory, and the biggest builder in the US with national service and top standard north American parts that can be delivered nest day from multiple sources including amazon. . The Sundance is made in Mexico, sold from a dealer that bought from the factory, and owned by a European equity investment company, all three things add layers of cost and give you nothing in return, also although both the Sundance and the Instinct use the same heating and control system, Sundance alters the connection points and board mounts to prevent you buying off the shelf versions forcing you into their expensive and profitable dealer eco system.

Fewer than 20% of hot tubs are bought through dealers now, there are service centers everywhere for any brand with a standard parts list using the good north American top OEM parts.

Further the Instinct line is covered under my buyers protection service, simply put the service will be great and if it ever slips you hit me up and i get involved on your behalf, hundreds oof these spas out there and zero outstanding issues or complaints...

this is a tank built to my spec with no bells and whistles or fancy branding bullshit, you cant touch this level of build for under $11k in stores and the only reason is we were able to leverage our massive traffic here and cut out the 30% normally in the price of a product to cover marketing branding and getting it in front of people.

On top of that the service level is guaranteed and covered by my buyers protection service, if anything stalls instead of a one on one with a seller you hit me up and ill deal with them :-)

https://instinctspas.com/

I believe the Master spa salt system is available for new tub orders now but not for retrofits.

Okay, so the AOP system is basically activated oxygen and then run through a UV sanitizer. Master has the same system on their spa as well. It's called Master Pure. However, this is old tech. It's not bad, but the reality is it's way oversold. They will tell you you're gonna be down to a part per million of chlorine. That's not really the reality. You're gonna be hovering somewhere in that two to three parts. We ran that Master Spas new salt system on a beta test for over a year. I think we did like four or five water adjustments the whole year, and that was with regular heavy usage. And we maintained below or at about a part per million of chlorine, which in the real world is about as good as you're ever going to get. It's also 30% lower salt than any other salt system on the market, and it's on demand. And that's the real game changer here. Lots of guys are gonna have this available soon, but they developed it. They have a lead right now nobody can touch. So if you really want a low-chemical, reliable, easy system that you can literally walk away from and just ignore for, you know, a month on end or two months on end, it's the only thing out there right now that's doing that.

hang Tight because no matter if you choose the Bullfrog or the Master we can get you better prices through the same sellers. ill get bill to reach out with better pricing.

This is a Chinese made rebrand, these guys buy tubs from China, put new marketing around it and pretend they are a builder. run away you can buy this type of thing for 1/3 the price on Alibaba which is still not a good idea...

what's the budget?

For sure we can find lots of tubs in that size range. I would offer a couple point here first regarding smaller tubs. first off water environments are better with a bit of room to move and float around, second time buyer almost unanimously say they would not go small second time around. You also lose depth and seating comfort.

The Natural instinct is smaller than the pure but still large enough for the depth and comfort and at $7500 delivered and installed with a cover its priced amazingly well for a tub in its class.

is the 6x6 still too big?

Its a tough one for sure warranty does not cover rodent damage. have you reached out to the company that installed it?

what's the seller saying? I would think they would be liable for the repairs and it might even be worth going to court if they refuse to step up. who's the seller and what's the brand?

Burton pools and spas ft Smith ark, Hotsprings brand hot tub

Have you asked them to fix the issue? what did they say? was it their installers?

They told me it was two months out of warranty and my responsibility and yes they did the setup.

This is not warranty this is an error on install and the liability does not end with the warranty, you could sue, depending on the cost of repair, they definitely messed up, you could also apply pressure to the hot springs manufacturer they might apply pressure to the seller, email me pics... ill send you an email now.

Absolutely not, this is one of the many fake brands, these guys buy spas from China redo the branding marketing and brochures and quadruple the price when they dump it in the US market. There is no scenario where buying from a guy who's buying from a rebrander who's buying from a factory is good economics, they are low end tubs all around...

what price did you see on which models?

Vortex 13 ft Aqualounge. $21,999 CAD. I was looking at MasterSpas, however, the comparable model is $10,000 more.

I would put my money somewhere more reliable like jacuzzi, master, hell even artesian would be better and yes your going to pay more but its going to last, I was working with a guy a while ago who was cutting up his 3 year old swim spa to have it removed and trying to buy a better one... And if your willing to risk the buy then cut them out and go direct to the factory that actually makes them you can buy swimmers like this for half that price on Alibaba direct...

Hydrotherapy is equal among all hot tubs. What really changes is the massage jetting.

When looking for a good massage spa its all about the size of the jets. https://youtu.be/pn2rdgv8yOc?si=NqCsXWaIPPQBw26r

Ignore and marketing bullshit like horsepower, or brand of jets the real effector and cost is the size of the jet.

Hands down the best made tub with the best most expensive jet package is the twilight series from master, close seconds would be J-400 series or artesian elite or LSX spas. Ill get bill to reach out with local options by email.

Sorry for the late response.

first off for the height issue, forget it you are never going to find a tub with the main therapy seat modeled for your size but the reality is there is a great solution, invest $100 in a good weighted cushion that will lift you up so that your back in in the right alignment for the jets :-)

You are dead right the small jets are crap, they are cheap low flow jets that do little for massage, the only thing they do is up the brochure image. For real therapy massage you need lots of the high flow large jets. they are expensive but they move the whole muscle mass and that makes a difference for long term muscle tension and they don't feel abusive. You can ignore all the marketing and sales people crap about pump sizes, special jet brands etc. its all bullshit just look at the top shot on a computer and you can see more than a hundred showroom visits. :-)

We can find you better deals Ill get bill to email you some prices for the local market.

Thank you!

There is nothing really well built in this price range, you simply cant build to a high standard and sell through a retailer at this price in fact you can even sell direct at this price. Id buy a good used unit before id by new at this price for sure, want me to look around the local market see what i can see?

I have been looking locally, everything seems to be acrylic tubs. My wife has her heart set on the roto molded for the slippery factor. Are there any quality roto molded tubs I should be trying to find used?

Oh ok, in general they are a cheaper shell but the good ones are very durable the key is look at the size to weight ratio that tells you how thick the shell is :-) we have an algorithm we use to determine the shell weight, surface area and thickness. For instance that Aquaterra runs right around 500 lbs with 52 jets whereas our top rated unit the bar harbor is over 150 lbs more material in the shell. that's a lot of resin and cost but it means its sustainable and will last, it also has better insulation, jetting, clamped plumbing lines and compression fittings on the shell, the Aquaterra has none of that is a cheap low end build all the way around. but even with our factory direct options and discounts you still going to be in the $9-$10k mark.

The whole slippery thing is interesting, Ive heard sales people selling rotomolds use this as a sales pitch before but in my experience its not really an issue, esp on brands like the instinct where they have textured the step and floor to make it non slip...

Whether to get a lounger or not in a hot tub Is a valid question. Here is the T... Most second time buyer do not buy a a lounger, simple as that somewhere around 80% in our experience and that's significant. First time buyers usually buy a lounger and its because they are trying to apply our dry land experience with a water environment and they don't cross over well. In your living room a lounger is great, it supports your weight across more of your body and that's comfortable. in the water you are floating, you weigh around 15 lbs the lounger does not do much and it takes up 3 seats and crowds the footwell and you tend to float out esp with the jets on.

Bothe the Natural Instinct brand of hot tubs and the Twilight 8.2 are great tubs from a build quality standpoint, they are part of the rare group of tubs that to the top five things. Self supported heavy grade shells, Full foam open celled insulation, Glued and Clamped plumbing, reliable top end non proprietary parts, And compression fit jet housings. there are very few brands who hit this mark and all of these things are the most reliable and most expensive way to build a hot tub! https://youtu.be/pKUWLAs6OL0?si=viWGRAC69G_J6lP-

On top of that they hit the next batch of things that are the creme de la creme on the hot tub shopping list! Privately held company which makes the price better and means its people building products not accountants building boxes. Its made in the US which stricter manufacturing regulations better prices esp in this Tariff world and more accountability. They also use solid timber framing which is quieter, better thermally and longer lasting than stainless steel or galvanized steel frames in a chlorine or salt environment. They have a high repairability rating with easily sourced parts, and plug and play standard connections throughout.

Ill get Bill to reach out with pricing and options for you.

First off look at the build... Hot springs/Caldera are the same company, they are decent but made in Mexico, loaded with proprietary parts that lock you into their overpriced dealer eco system and they are overpriced, the jetting is pretty low end with mostly the small low flow jets, you need the large high flow therapy jets and look for tubs that have them in the area where your back needs it. you don't need to go to a showroom to evaluate the massage package, just look at pics on the websites. American whirlpool is lower end build, they do good shells on their higher end lines but they don't clamp the plumbing, use cheap insulation, cheap steel frames, btu the jetting is slightly better on the higher end lines. Wellis is a step above both mainly because the high automation level means better consistency and that means reliability. Nordic is a roto molded spa, a lot less expensive because its a cheap shell, it also has a low end insulation system. Marquis is probably the better choice but they were recently acquired so the prices are higher now and they stopped clamping the plumbing lines.

Master has service depots in charlotte, honestly 80% of people buy outside of dealer networks, its an antiquated model that increases the cost a lot and offers little value, if you stick to brands with standard parts and goo build any one can work on them and ignore warranty stuff it unlikely you will ever use the warranty and if the brand uses standard parts you can get them anywhere... I would always choose good build and easy repairability over anything else.

do you have pricing?

We can help there for sure, what service do you want? what's the budget?

Well I am not familiar with this particular problem in general anyone doing these modified non compliant connections, sizes, plugs etc. is so bad, proprietary systems in this industry are never a good thing for the end user and would remove a brand from my perspective purchase list. Right to repair, clean reparability and readily available OEM parts are always a better option for the end user and always a profit generating center for the manufacturer.

This was not modified plumbing. This was a standard plumbing all throughout the hot tub. And I still see it occasionally and I have to turn the jobs down. How did they get by with using 1-7/8" PVC when it cannot be located anywhere? I did not think PVC or flex PVC came in proprietary sizes. As I said, our premier hot tub repair service and parts place (which service is nationally by the way), said they had to develop a kit for strong spas due to the proprietary plumbing.

Thanks

My bad for clarification I mean modified by the builder from standard size.

Give me more info on the national company doing service please :-)