The Brands I Like and Dislike and Why

For tall people, you're actually looking at two different approaches that both work well. You've got either a big footwell or molded seating. Here's the thing with molded seating: you sink deeper into the water and get more of a bucket seat situation. Most of your leg ends up in the seat itself, so you don't need as much footwell. Tall people tend to really prefer aggressive molded seating because you end up deeper in the water overall.

With big footwells, you're looking at bench seating that's only about fifteen inches wide. Your butt's on the seat and your whole leg and knees are hanging into the footwell. That's fine for a lot of people and definitely has its place, but it's not necessarily the sweet spot for taller folks.

Now, on your specific models: The Master Spa Precision 8 is a great tub at a great price. It uses EcoPure instead of Mineral FROG, but they're basically identical systems. And honestly, FROG systems can be added to any hot tub, so it's not something that has to be built in from the factory. That 10,900 price is actually one of the better ones I've seen on the Precision 8.

You might also want to take a look at Master Spa's Instinct models. They're factory direct, so the pricing is really good, and they've got the more aggressively molded seating you're looking for as a tall person.

The Jacuzzi J285 at 11,900 is nowhere near the Precision 8. Jacuzzi builds them in Mexico now, which means tariffs, and they're corporate equity owned, so the pricing is inflated. The J285 cuts corners everywhere: insulation, frames. I've even seen steel frames on some of them. If you could get a J385 down to about 12K, that would be in the ballpark. But that J285, I wouldn't touch it personally.

The Vita Grand 300 is one of those goofy ones. I'm not a real big fan. You're looking at cheap steel frames, cheap perimeter installation systems, no clamps on the plumbing. They build a decent shell, but it's not top tier.

I'll h

**Q: We're new to Eastern Iowa and looking for our first hot tub with seating for 6-7 people that meets your five quality criteria. The closest dealers carry Caldera, Artesian, and Sundance. Would you recommend any of these brands, and what should we expect to pay? We're looking for quality and low maintenance without a bunch of extra jets or features.**

**A:** Eastern Iowa's got decent service for most major brands, which is good news. Not too many brands actually hit all five quality markers. Most do three or four. Let me walk you through what you're looking at.

Caldera is owned by this massive corporation called Mascow. Big marketing spend, made in Mexico, so tariffs hit hard. That's the real issue with corporate and equity owned brands these days. They've got all these layers of payouts and dividends that drive the price up three grand or more right off the bat. Caldera's not a bad tub, don't get me wrong, but it's all proprietary connections and parts. Even the power supply is different from every other brand. That locks you into their expensive dealer ecosystem forever when something breaks down the road. You're paying for the marketing and branding, not necessarily better quality.

Artesian is the only one of that group actually made in the US, so you'll save money just on tariffs right there. They use a standard parts list for the most part, which is good. The downside is they got acquired by an equity investor too, so prices went up. They glue their plumbing lines but don't clamp them. Now clamping and gluing together is really the gold standard. If you can find someone doing both, that's huge.

Sundance is also equity owned, and they've moved all production to Mexico, so again, tariffs and the same proprietary connection lock-in as Caldera. They clamp but don't glue, which is backwards from Artesian. Out of those three, if the price was right, Artesian would probably be your best bet.

Here's what I'd really recommend though: Instinct Spas, made by Master Spa. Master Spa is the largest hot tub builder in the US and one of the oldest. They haven't been acquired by equity investment like everyone else, and they're actually bigger than most of the other American brands out there. Factory direct means you're cutting layers of middlemen out of the equation. The real key thing is all the parts on those tubs are standard North American OEM parts. You can get them on Amazon or dozens of other places for next day delivery. No proprietary nonsense, no connection lock-in. That matters a lot for long term repairability and maintenance. Every line is glued and clamped. For what you're looking for, quality and low maintenance over years, that's probably your best bet.

Now the pricing picture depends on your budget. We can get you into a quality tub anywhere from under nine grand up to twenty grand, so I need to know what you're comfortable spending.

Bill's going to reach out with some specific options in your area and get you hooked up with local dealers. Here's how we work: we make the introduction, which lets them know you're not coming in blind. It protects you because we cover our buyers with our protection service, and dealers know that. If you end up unhappy with the service down the road, you reach out to us, we reach out to them. Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of that kind of attention with a business like ours getting a lot of traffic. So that's a solid layer of protection for you. Let's get your budget sorted and find you something that fits.

**Q: I'm looking to buy my first hot tub. I'm currently considering the Platinum Spas Reim model and AquaPure Cypress. Do you have any advice on either of these brands or alternatives?**

**A:** Both of those companies are what we call virtual manufacturers or rebranders. They're not actually building hot tubs. What they do is buy containers of hot tubs out of China, usually mid-quality at best, then they redo the marketing, brochures, and branding and pretend they're the manufacturer. It's super common in the market right now, but it's not a good deal for you as an end user.

Here's how it works: a tub that costs three and a half to four grand to make in China gets marked up when they buy it. Dealers are buying from them at six or seven grand. Then when the dealer sells it to you, you're paying eight, nine, or ten. You're getting a four thousand dollar tub but paying double or more for all the middleman branding and markup.

There's way better options in the marketplace. Stick with a US builder if you can. You're going to save a lot of money just cutting out all that branding nonsense. A quality US-made tub is going to hold up better and give you better support down the road.

What's your budget looking like, and what kind of prices did you get quoted on those two? I'm pretty sure we can find you better deals through local sellers in your area. Once we make the introduction, they'll know you're coming through our system, which means they know you're covered with our buyer's protection. That matters to them because they know if anything goes sideways with service or support, you're calling me and I'm calling them. Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of that situation.

Bill's going to reach out with some options. Give me an idea of what you're comfortable spending and we'll see what we can dig up for you.

Yeah, I'm familiar with Catalina. Back in the day they were a good family-run business with solid tubs. They were actually on our recommended brand list. But then they got acquired by LPI Industries, which is just a big corporate marketing machine. Lots of advertising and branding spend. When that happened, the quality went down.

Right now I wouldn't really be looking for or recommending them. You're looking at cheaper shells, lower end perimeter installation systems, and no clamps on the plumbing lines. Those are three big red flags right there. So unless the price was really, really good, it's not worth it.

What's your budget looking like and what size tub are you in the market for? Give me an idea and I'll have Bill reach out with some better options in your local market. We can probably find you something with better quality at a better price.

Cal Spa is a US builder, which is one good thing. They're made in California, so you're avoiding a lot of the tariff hits you'd get with Mexican or Canadian made brands in the current environment.

On the insulation side, they've got two options. Their standard perimeter system isn't really the gold standard for cold climates, I'll be honest with you. But they do offer an upgrade to a full foam package with a good open-cell foam product. If you're in a cold environment like Minnesota, you definitely want to be buying that upgrade. It's usually around a five hundred dollar add-on, but it makes a real difference.

What kind of price are you seeing on this tub and what's your budget? There's probably options just as good or better in your area. Give me those numbers and I'll have Bill reach out. He knows the suppliers up there and can get you some pricing directly from the same dealers, usually better than what you're getting quoted now.

The main thing though is we'll cover you with our buyer's protection. We make the introduction so the seller knows you're not coming in alone. They know you've got backup, and they also know if they don't take care of you right, you're calling me and I'm calling them. That's part of the deal with my protection service, and dealers take that seriously. So you're in good hands.

Coast Spas is out of Canada, which is good because you're avoiding tariff hits being in Canada yourself. But here's the thing with Coast Spas: they had a decent track record pre-COVID, but post-COVID everything started falling apart. That 2022 tub was right in that window when things crashed and burned. Since then they've retooled, but they're building cheaper shells now.

That particular tub probably has high density foam, which is used to prop up cheaper shells but it is going to make any repairs very difficult. Here's the bigger issue though: a slow leak now is a red flag. When a tub starts leaking, you fix one leak and then you chase leaks forever. It never really ends. Coast doesn't clamp their plumbing lines, so that could be your culprit. They're probably still using the old two-part jet housings too, which can become a headache down the road.

The real question is how much are they asking for it? That's what matters here. I can dig through your local used market and probably find you better tubs. Give me the price they quoted and your budget, and I can give you a better answer on whether this one's worth it or if there's something better out there.

Harmonic is made in the US, which is good. You're going to save some money on tariffs. The downside is they're a very small operation, and that's a real problem in this industry right now.

The industry's been acquired by equity investment and consolidation. You've got these huge companies now like Master Spas, Invest Industrial, and Mascow Corporation. Between them they probably control sixty percent of the industry. These guys have massive purchasing power and economy of scale. What that means is smaller builders just can't compete. They end up having to cut corners to survive.

With Harmonic you're looking at a cheaper cradle-supported shell, a basic perimeter installation system, and no clamps on the plumbing. Unless they're really cheap, it's probably not the sweet spot. And honestly, even if they are really cheap, it's probably still not worth it.

What model are they offering and what kind of pricing are you seeing? What's your budget? Give me those details and I can point you toward something that's going to give you better value and fewer headaches down the road.

Hydropool used to be Canadian owned, but it's not anymore. It's owned by an equity investor called Invest Industrial. They own a bunch of brands like Jacuzzi and Sundance, which are decent products. Hydropool is their poor cousin. It's not in that quality tier at all.

That insulation system they're talking about isn't innovative. It's cheap Mylar. Mylar is used in hot climates to reflect heat away from surfaces because it's good at reflecting radiant heat. The problem is it has no thermal mass, so it's terrible at retaining heat in a system. That's the exact opposite of what you want in a hot tub, especially in Vermont. The marketing is fantastic because equity-owned brands throw money at marketing, and that gets reflected in the price.

The plastic floor is nice, but it's available on any hot tub. It's not a unique feature. What you're really getting with Hydropool is a thinner cradle-supported shell and the absolute cheapest build quality and insulation you can buy.

Master Spas is fully foamed, but it's open cell foam, not high density. That's the key difference. Don't confuse high density foam with open cell. High density foam is a nightmare to service because it encapsulates everything. Open cell foam is the opposite. If you have a leak in an open cell system, you touch the foam, find the wet spot, pull the foam out with your fingers, find the leak in the middle, repair it, and reshape the foam. It's not hard at all. And Master also offers a full ABS bottom pan if that rodent issue matters to you.

On the jets, the Twilight 7.25 and the 6800 are very different animals. The Twilight has a lot of expensive large high-flow therapy jets. The cheaper tubs load up on small jets that cost a tenth as much. They make the brochure numbers look good, but they do almost nothing for actual massage therapy. Good therapy tubs have fewer jets but way more expensive and effective packages overall.

Here's the thing though: you're in Vermont. That Hydropool is going to get hit with a massive tariff because it's coming from Canada. That's going to drive the price way up, way above where it should be.

What kind of pricing are you seeing on both of these? That's going to help me give you a better read. In the meantime, I'll have Bill reach out. We know the sellers in that market and can negotiate better pricing for you. When we introduce you, they know you're coming through Hot Tub University and that our buyer's protection service is part of the deal. That means if you ever have a service problem, you're calling us and we're calling them. They don't want that attention because we get a lot of traffic. So they're going to be way more careful taking care of you down the road. You usually end up with better pricing too, and it doesn't cost you anything to use that service.

Spa Manufacturer is based in Florida, which is good. You'll avoid tariff hits. That's where the goodness ends though.

You're looking at a cheaper cradle-supported shell, no clamps on the plumbing, and a cheap perimeter insulation system. In a Florida marketplace you're not really worried about insulation anyway, so that's not your issue. The real problem is reliability. These guys don't have a great reputation. Lots of complaints and negative feedback from clients.

Here's something else to know about reviews: you really can't trust most of them. They're not vetted and they're not third party, so there's a ton of fake reviews out there. This is industry-wide. Unless you're looking at vetted third-party reviews where the buyer actually proved they own a hot tub from that manufacturer, you've got to take most of what you read with a grain of salt. Especially the positive reviews.

Negative reviews are a bit more trustworthy, but even those get polluted with fake reviews from competitors sometimes. The review market is basically pay-to-play at this point.

What's your budget and what model were you looking at? What kind of pricing are you seeing? That'll help me give you a better picture of whether this is worth pursuing or if there's something better out there.

I was looking at the 800WF, which is 10k. I can go higher.
I want reliably, good jets. Low maintenance.
I would like local place that does installation, repair and maintenance.

No way, even if it was a top build which it is not, its would still be worth around $10k retail, factory direct sub $8 k look at the jets! its all the small cheap low flow jets and a few of the mid flows...

compare that to an instinct, artesian south seas, hell even a call spa and you have better bang for the buck.

Ill get bill to reach out with better local deals... and we will cover you with our buyers protection service, if anyone drops the ball instead of a one on one battle you hit me up and ill have the fight for you :-)

Here's your answer, in your voice:

---

Hey Tim, glad you reached out. So on the Master Spa units, your best move is to let us do the shopping for you. We'll get you connected with local dealers who know what's up, and here's the thing: once they know you're coming through us and you're under my buyer protection, they're gonna take care of you because the last thing they want is me on the phone with them. Trust me, that's effective. We buy thousands of these every year, and nobody in the industry wants to be on the bad side of the volume we move. You'll get better pricing this way than going direct, and you won't have to chase anybody down if something goes sideways. Bill's gonna reach out to you with options and what you're looking at price-wise for both the 7.2 and 8.2.

On the electrical side, here's what you need to know for the conduit. For a 50-amp circuit with 6 AWG copper wire, you're gonna run 3/4 inch EMT or Schedule 40 PVC. Three quarter inch will pass inspection and meets code per the NEC tables. You get about 30 percent fill, which is plenty of headroom under the 40 percent max.

As for location, running it under the patio is fine as long as the conduit is properly buried and protected. The power needs to be accessible from the tub, obviously, but sub-grade is standard practice. Just make sure whoever's doing the rough in knows they need the conduit in place before the concrete goes down. Get that locked in during the patio build and you're golden.

Thanks, was hopeful you guys would be able to help. Look forward to getting a Master Spa picked out and ordered soon.

Hey John, good question. So PDC, they build out of Pennsylvania, solid builder overall. Their installation system's not the best, it's more of a budget perimeter setup, but they do good shells and the plumbing's solid. The thing about PVC spas though is their jet packages are pretty weak. They go cheap on the large high flow therapy jets and load you up with smaller low flow jets instead. That's not what you want if jet pressure matters to you.

Bullfrog is still made in Utah, which is good news, keeps you away from tariff issues. But here's the thing that changed recently: they got picked up by an equity investor. And that's when your costs go up. Equity owned companies have all kinds of layers of payouts, dividends, shareholders, marketing spend, and you're looking at typically two to three grand more per unit than you should be paying. So yeah, prices went up.

Now the x7 specifically. Its weakness is the shell. It's a thinner cradle supported shell, and that's the problem. Your Denali lasted 18 years for a reason: it's got a heavy grade self supporting shell. That's the most important and most expensive part of the tub, and it's critical. The x7 cuts corners there.

What are you seeing for pricing on that Bullfrog? It should be right around ten, eleven grand. We can find you better tubs in that price range, honestly in any price range. Not sure where you're located, so if you give me your area and what your budget is, I can probably dig up some solid options that'll give you better jet pressure and better insulation without the equity markup.

re than the cold itself. Get it blocked from wind and you're solid.

One more thing: if you can run 60 amp service instead of 50, put the unit in high current mode and the heater stays on even when the jets are firing. That's huge for maintaining temperature in winter. Changes everything.

Hey Mohamed,

Good question. Beachcomber makes a decent tub, but the Costco version has some real problems you need to know about before dropping that money.

The biggest issue is the skirt. It's non-removable on their Costco model, and that's a nightmare waiting to happen. When these things leak down the road, you're stuck. You can't get to anything. It's costly to fix and honestly just a pain. Beachcomber knows this but they do it to cut costs for that price point.

Here's the other thing nobody talks about. Beachcomber plays games with their jet count. When they say 67 jets, they're counting every single hole in every jet. That's their trick. In reality you're looking at maybe 20 actual jets. It's marketing BS and they're the only company that really does this aggressively. It's not honest.

So yeah, you're getting a lower price but you're also getting a model with fewer real features and more future headaches. It might feel like a deal sitting at Costco but once you factor in the skirt issue and everything else, it's overpriced for what you're actually getting.

If you want to stay in that ballpark, there are better options out there that won't leave you dealing with nightmare repairs a few years down the road.

what price is this tub and do you have a link for it? i cant find it on their website...

David,

Good questions. Let me be straight with you on both.

Master Spa and Jacuzzi are solid, but they're playing different games right now. Jacuzzi is vertically integrated, but here's the real issue. They're made in Mexico now and owned by an equity investment group. When equity takes over, you know what happens: prices go up. We're talking $2-3k more just on the equity tax, plus Mexican tariffs are hitting hard right now. You're probably paying $3-4k more for a comparable Jacuzzi, and frankly, they don't glue and clamp anymore. Just clamp.

Master Spas? Privately held. Last big player standing against equity. They still glue and clamp, which costs more to build but holds better long-term. Similar parts, similar construction overall, but the difference is in the business model.

Here's the kicker with Jacuzzi. Proprietary parts game. They've intentionally redesigned how boards mount, how connectors plug in, so you can't buy the generic Balboa heating system everyone else uses. You gotta buy the Jacuzzi version. Exact same thing, twice the price. Locks you into their dealer ecosystem. Master doesn't play that.

On budget, $20k is huge honestly. You can get really well-made stuff starting at $9k. No reason to spend all of it unless you want to.

I'm gonna have Bill reach out with solid pricing on all the brands you're looking at, plus a couple outliers like Artesian. We'll get you real numbers for your area.

Chris

Thank you for the reply and I look forward to hearing from Bill on pricing and other brand options. Yea I thought 20k was likely more than we'd need to spend but really want to get a quality spa. Also let me know on the leaving the spa in the summer question and do we drain or leave filled and have someone maintain. Thank you.

Definitely leave it full, turn the temp down and get someone to check every month and sanitize, if you go with the salt system it will take care of itself while you are gone...

Hey Aneta,

Good to hear from you again. Great timing asking before winter hits.

So here's the straight answer: the Master Spa LSX900 is going to be your best bet of the three you mentioned. It checks all five boxes, which honestly not many tubs do at that size. For a 7-10 person tub, you're getting a solid self-supporting shell, properly glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, full foam insulation, and actual OEM parts availability. That matters when you need service down the road in Collingwood.

Let me give you the quick rundown on the other two:

The Bullfrog M Series sounds good on paper, but their shells are cradle supported (not self-supporting) and they've been having real issues with their jet packs. We're talking mold and bacteria problems that keep coming back. Plus they got bought out by an equity group a couple years ago and prices shot up accordingly. Performance honestly hasn't matched that.

Arctic Spas Summit XL cuts corners in places that matter. Cheaper insulation, they only glue the plumbing no clamps, and a lot of their parts are cheap Chinese made stuff rebranded under their own names. You'll end up dealing with more repairs than you want.

Beachcomber is actually a solid alternative if you want another option to explore, but they still don't hit all five like Master Spa does.

Since you're keeping your info private until you decide, that's smart. Once you're ready to move forward with Master Spa, you'll want to reach out to a dealer. I know you said you wanted to avoid that step, but honestly it's worth talking to someone who can handle the installation and warranty stuff properly, especially up there in Collingwood.

Ill get Bill to reach out to you he knows all the players around there.

What is a reasonable price for the MasterSpa LSX900? Will Bill help with that? Thank you kindly,

Bill will find the right prices for you on any brand :-)

Hi Jon,

Good question, and I appreciate you doing your homework on the AV-8. Let me give you some real talk about Aquavoss.

Here's the thing — and this is pretty common in our industry right now. Aquavoss is essentially a rebranding operation. Two guys who used to refurbish tubs now import stock models (mostly from China), slap their name on them, and market them as their own "manufacturing." You end up with a $3,500 base tub that goes through multiple middlemen from factory to importer who rebrands it and makes it look like the make it, then to a dealer, and then you, before it lands in your backyard. By the time it reaches you, you're probably looking at 2-3x that original cost.

Now, that said you're right about the Balboa pack. That's solid; it's an industry standard and means parts and service are accessible. Simple is good, and I get the appeal of avoiding proprietary BS.

But before you decide, I need a few specifics:

What price are they quoting you? That'll tell us a lot about the markup game they're playing.

Also, i tried to dig into the specs and its a low end cradle-supported shell. The plumbing and insulation again lower end and a cheap Steel frame. These aren't design features to be proud of, they're cost-cutting staples on entry-level rebranded tubs.

The black model looks clean, I get it. But make sure you're not paying premium dollars for a standard import with a fresh coat of paint and a logo.

Want to send me the specs and pricing? I can give you an honest breakdown.

Cheers

$10,500 for the black one delivered. 5 yr shell/frame warranty and 2 years everything else. The only other spas I'd want are the Stil 7 or Jacuzzi j-408 which are both twice the money and overly featured for my taste. I like that the Aquavoss isn't complicated-its a tub with bench seating, hot water and jets. It reminds me of the Aquatica and Casa Blui spa designs-simple, bench seating, hot water and jets. I'm sure those are of much better quality than the Aquavoss but again at twice the cost. I know you usually get what you pay for but l wonder if another 10k is actually worth it..

you can buy it direct from China through Alibaba for $3500 lol and the warranty is 2 years on parts and 5 years only on the structure of the shell, no surface warranty for delam etc and no leak warranty

You want solid bang for the buck simple and reliable get the instinct spa, best tub on the market sub $10k at $8500 for a self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, full foam insulation compression fittings and top end parts you can get anywhere its untouchable,

Alright, so for Edmonton you absolutely need full foam insulation. That's non-negotiable in that climate. But here's the thing - forget all that nonsense about it being difficult to repair. That's old news. The heavy duty high density foams from back in the day? Yeah those harden up like a rock and become a nightmare. That's not what you're dealing with in the newer tubs.

Beachcomber makes some really well-made stuff with open-celled foam. You get way better insulation than a perimeter system, you're recapturing the heat from your motors so you're not just throwing that away, and if you get a leak it's stupid easy to fix. Literally pull it out with your hands. Find the wet spot, pull the foam, repair the leak which is right in the middle of that wet spot, throw the foam back in. Done.

But here's where you gotta be careful with Beachcomber - on their cheaper models, especially the ones through places like Costco, the skirts are non-removable. And that's an absolute nightmare. If you ever get a leak, the tub has to be elevated, the base comes off, and now you're trying to find and repair something when you can't even get to it properly. Half the time you end up having to cut holes in the side of the skirt or drag it to a repair center. And that's not covered under warranty. It can turn into a real headache fast. So make sure whatever you're looking at has a removable skirt.

Master Spas and the really premium Beachcomber lines do this right - full foam, removable everything. Most expensive system on the market but absolutely worth it for a cold climate.

Now Bullfrog. Look, they're okay but here's where I have a problem. Their Comm series is low end, and Bullfrog has these cheap cradle supported shells. You'll see complaints online all day long about shell failures. That's the most important part of the whole tub and the most expensive part. That's absolutely not where you want to see corners cut. The Comm series especially just keeps getting worse.

Real talk - at 11 grand Canadian you cannot build a good hot tub and sell it to regular people. That's just the math. Unless you want to bump that budget up, used is genuinely your play here. Yeah they're gonna cost you, but the performance and reliability you get is way better.

This is good but its worth around $4k max https://www.facebook.com/share/1Ea6mWqVne/

good as well worth $6k https://www.facebook.com/share/1Er23VWEGn/

This is a great deal... https://www.facebook.com/share/1CsUvtvrrK/

good tub worth $6k https://www.facebook.com/share/1dv1GFgioQ/

Best one its worth $8700 https://www.facebook.com/share/1CFYWCoDQw/

Thanks for the quick reply on this, it is appreciated.
In response to the beachcomber items. Do you know if the hybrid 578 has removable side panels? You mention the hybrid system isn’t great either in previous posts about beachcomber. Would that be an issue in a tub that is 14 years old?

Not sure, they did start recently to put removable skirts on the higher end models, but you need to confirm with the seller.

Yes you are correct Im not a huge fan of the Hybrid system, especially if your area is prone to power outages, but overall its is a pretty solid tub even with these flaws.

cant find much on them, ask what the insualtion is, also ask if they clamp the plumbing lines from the manifold to the jets.

That's a tough one, its a 3 year warranty but they don't cave without substantial weight on them like uncleared snow? what happened to it?

Thanks for your reply. We never had too much snow but Rain would collect in the folds and we had to use a blower to push off. Now it is very loose. And when trying to roll the integrity is reduced and keep folding instead of rolling. I can send pictures if helpful

So its less than 3 years old? what grounds did they refuse the warranty?

They keep asking for more pictures with all the clips closed. Which we did. And then their last email said: “the factory said we should open the cover and pull the straps from the inside to make the cover more taught so it does not collect water.” I don’t even know who is supposed to do that. They basically keep giving us excuses and run around.

who is the seller? also did you report the issue before the end of the warranty? try going around the seller and hit up the factory directly....

I lived there for decades and know all the sellers, Ill get bill to reach out and get you some solutions we can get you better pricing through the local sellers and ensure a higher level of service under our Buyers protection service. What's the budget and specs you want?

I think between 10K and 15K? Maybe more if that's not realistic... but if I can get something good towards the 10K side, that would be great! 6-person (which feels nice for 4; I'm thinking - the seats sort of assume you're leg touching the person next to you, which isn't exactly what I'd want. I'd like it to be roomy for 4 people, and most of the time it'll be 2). I'm ready to be educated on all the other specs - I feel I need to go somewhere and look at different tubs.

Bill will reach out if he hasn't already, when you shop keep your personal details out of the mix... we can get you better pricing if we can introduce you to the seller as a new customer (not already in their database)

Thank you! That is intriguing information about keeping personal details close. I look forward to hearing from Bill. I also think I need to revise my budget upwards and I wonder what the point of diminishing returns is cost-wise for a hot tub...

depends on the jetting package but honestly a lot of it is overpriced right now margins are up massively for builders that are equity or corporate owned.

John,

Yeah, Artesian makes a solid tub. In my opinion they're definitely up there in the top five. They're made in Las Vegas and they've been around, so you're not buying from some fly-by-night operation.

They did get acquired by an equity investment firm a while back, which is the same story we see over and over. Prices went up a couple grand when that happened. That's just what happens when equity gets involved. More layers of management, more marketing spend, dividend payouts to investors, all that stuff that has nothing to do with making a better hot tub but definitely impacts your wallet.

One thing that changed with them is they switched to glue-only plumbing lines instead of using both glue and clamps. Some manufacturers go glue only, some go clamp only, but the gold standard in this industry is doing both. Glue and clamp together. It's just more robust. That said, it's not a deal breaker with Artesian, it's just worth knowing.

Other than that, there's not a lot to complain about. Good shells, good frames, good insulation, solid parts throughout. They're right up there with Master Spas, Jacuzzi, all the other top tier brands. If you've done your homework and the Island Grand Cayman Elite checks your boxes, you're looking at a quality unit.

Just make sure you're getting a fair price from the dealer which model are you looking at and what pricing are you seeing?

Jenna,

Okay, so for Ottawa winters you're looking at the right things. A good self-supporting shell and a full foam insulation package is critical. That's non-negotiable if you're going to keep this thing running through a Canadian winter.

Let's break down what you're looking at.

Bullfrog S180XD. The problem here is they use a low-end cradle-supported shell. Other than that, they're not bad. Full foam insulation, they glue and clamp the plumbing lines, parts are generally pretty good. But there's a lot of chatter on the internet about shell failures with these guys. And when you're talking about a big unit like a swim spa, I'd be leery about putting them on my top list. Also, Bullfrog is made in the US, so tariffs are going to hit their pricing pretty hard, which is something to factor in.

Arctic Spa Ocean Legend. These guys are Canadian made, and they build great shells. That's actually a real strength. But the insulation system is perimeter only, not full foam. No clamps on the plumbing lines either, just glue. And the parts are the cheapest you can get. They're using rising dragon jets out of China but private labeling them so people think it's some different brand. I'm not going to say it's a nightmare brand, but if the price is right, it's probably the best value of what you're looking at. Just don't expect a legacy brand.

Hydropool 14AX Sport. This is the one I'd avoid. Hydropool is part of the Jacuzzi group, but they're like the poor cousin. Thinner cradle-supported shells, really low-end insulation system, honestly one of the worst in the industry. Lots of spin marketing, but it's just mid-low end stuff. They're owned by Invest Industrial Group, same people who own Jacuzzi and Sundance. If you were going to go with that company, you'd be way better off stepping up to Jacuzzi. I wouldn't put my money on a Hydropool.

For Ottawa winters, you need that full foam insulation and a solid shell. Of your three options, Arctic Spa is probably your best bet if the price works, but Bullfrog would be second if you can get past the shell concerns. Skip the Hydropool.

What pricing have you gotten? what features do you like and what budget are you trying to hit?

I can get bill to reach out he's my guy in Canada and knows that market and can get you better pricing through the same sellers and introduce some other options.

Thanks - appreciated. We really wanted to stay under the 40k mark. We actually liked the Jacuzzi J14, but felt it really wasn’t deep enough and would end up too expensive to be on our list. Another option is to forget the swim spa idea and just get a hot tub (Beachcomber 540 hybrid4) which fits on our deck and get a separate pool, but we didn’t want to maintain two separate water ‘systems’ Pricing we have received on the models we were interested in range between 40k and 50k. Happy to have other options that could meet our needs - we are not interested in bells and whistles (lights, music, etc) we want something solid, fits us, will last and not cost us an arm and leg to heat or constantly repair.

Yeah that's the downside to the J14, at 52" its shallow, having owned a few swimmers over the years the depth was a bigger advantage than the size,

Beachcomber is a well made spa but expensive with a pretty mid to low end jetting package, they have a weird thing where they claim outrageous number of jets for instance they call the 540 model a 102 jet tub but its really a basic 30 jet tub, everyone else in the industry counts a jet as a jet they count the number of holes in each jet to make it wound good :-)

Master is a well built, same build as the jacuzzi, beachcombers and the largest maker of hot tubs and swim spas in the US or Canada. and the largest seller of swim spas in the world. the also do full foam 60" deep models for reasonable prices. they are the only one of the top 5 manufacturers that's still privately held the rest have been acquired by equity investors, when equity takes over an industry prices go up, its why jacuzzi is so much more expensive.

check out the therapool series, simple reliable and built like a tank with easily sourced parts and top end shell and plumbing systems.

Maple's a pretty decent brand overall. They're made in Canada and I believe they're part of the Trevi group now. Lower end insulation system, but the shells are mid to mid-upper range, which is actually better than a lot of the stuff out there. So it's a solid mid-tier option.

What kind of price are you seeing on the 550?

12999 plus tax canadian

not a bad price but I would spend a bit more and get a better insulation and build quality, or maybe look used. you want me to see what's in the used inventory around you?

Service on that isn't an issue in that area its a standard build with easily sourced parts and there are service centers there that are more reliable than dealers...

Im getting bill to dig in on the pricing he will reach out on email

Don,

First off, I want to acknowledge your local dealer. The fact that they've stuck with you this long without charging you and kept trying different fixes tells me they actually give a shit about their customers. That's becoming rare, so hold onto that if they've earned your trust over the years.

Now, let's talk about your actual dilemma because it's a real one, but it's not what you think it is.

You're right to be skeptical when you see a bunch of "stay away from Master Spa Expo dealers" posts online. But here's the thing nobody wants to talk about: most of that noise isn't coming from customers. It's coming from other dealers and competing brands. Why? Because Master Spa is still privately held. They're one of the only major players in this industry that isn't owned by equity investors, and because of that, their prices are three to four grand lower than everybody else's for basically the same equipment. That pisses off the rest of the industry.

Think about it from a dealer's perspective. You've got a retail store in your market, and then some guy rolls up with fifty hot tubs and thirty sales guys and sells five hundred units in one weekend. That's more than you sell in a whole year. Your sales disappear for months. Of course they're going to trash talk expos and the brand. The reviews you're reading? That's dealer warfare, not customer complaints.

When you look at the actual third-party verified customer satisfaction ratings, Master Spa ranks up there with the best of them. The stories that Master tubs fall apart or are cheap quality? That's the narrative the industry is pushing so you'll pay more for the same thing elsewhere.

Here's the real problem though: You're kind of stuck.

Your current Hot Springs setup, like most Watkins products, runs on a twenty amp and a thirty amp breaker. Master Spa, Jacuzzi, and basically everyone else uses a standard fifty amp service. If you switch to Master Spa, you're potentially looking at an electrician bill to rewire your pad. Hot Springs tells you their setup is somehow better for you, but that's bullshit. It's just a lock-in strategy so when you want to upgrade or replace it down the line, you have to buy their brand again or pay to have an electrician redo everything.

So here's my take: Your dealer sounds solid. Get a price from them. See what they'd charge for a Hot Springs unit that would fit your existing electrical setup and get them to give you terms that work.

Then come back here with the number and the model and ill do a side by side for you against couple comparable brands taking into account the likely electrical issue.

also confirm to me if you have the 2 breaker set up or the single 50 amp breaker...

Mark,

Yeah, the phone numbers and emails are on the website. I know, I know, they're a pain to find. I'll get someone to reach out to you directly and they'll take care of all your delivery questions. That's the easy part.

Now let me tell you why things work the way they do with Pure Instinct, because it's actually a pretty good reason.

That tub used to be twelve grand when it was sitting in retail stores. The reason it's not that price anymore is because we literally got Master Spa to pull it out of the dealer network entirely. That allowed us to strip 30% of the cost out of the hot tub. Think about that for a second. Thirty percent. That's a huge deal.

Here's where that thirty percent comes from. Every hot tub you see in a showroom, someone's paying for that showroom. Someone's paying for salespeople to be there to help you. Someone's paying for them to put it on the floor, maintain it, keep it running as a demo, all the advertising and marketing to get you to walk into that store in the first place. That's dealer infrastructure, and it costs money. A lot of money. That thirty percent is basically the entire cost of getting a hot tub in front of a customer.

When we approached manufacturers about doing a direct deal, Master Spa stepped up with the best tub at the best price. And the whole thing worked because we already had the traffic. We're already getting almost eighty percent of everyone looking to buy a hot tub coming through Hot Tub University. So we could strip that cost out and pass it directly to you.

The trade off is the support side looks different. You're not calling a dealer's showroom. You're calling the service number on your paperwork, and honestly, that's probably all you'll ever need to do. But here's what we added to make sure you're protected. You're in our buyer's protection service. That means if you ever have a service issue down the road and it's not handled the way it should be, you reach out to me. And then we step in, we make some phone calls, and we make noise until it gets fixed. And let me tell you, that's incredibly effective because no manufacturer wants to be on the bad side of the amount of traffic that comes through here.

So that's why it works the way it does. And I'll get someone on your delivery questions right now.

Depends on he price point and whether you want massage therapy or chill hot water time. also how big and most importantly what's the budget?

Below $11k Instinct hands down beats everything else on the market, at $8600 delivered and installed it is as good or better than most stuff in stores at $11k. better build, better parts, better plumbing reliability, better insulation better shell. its factory direct and untouchable.

Higher end, Artesian Elite and Master Twilight are solid US made brands with good jetting and solid build, Bullfrog X series, Jacuzzi, even Sundance at the right price can be good buys as well.

Jacuzzi is a legitimate manufacturer that produces hot tubs in Mexico. They're owned by a European equity investment group that also controls several other brands under the same parent company. Sun and Soul Spas, on the other hand, is not a manufacturer at all, they're a rebrander, or what we call a virtual manufacturer.

Here's how it works: they buy shipping containers of hot tubs from China for three to four thousand dollars, slap their own name and marketing on them, and by the time they're selling through dealers to consumers, they're asking twice that price. It's the worst-case scenario in the industry, and there's really no comparison between the two brands.

Jacuzzi is actually a solid buy overall, though they're overpriced primarily because of tariffs on Mexican imports combined with their expensive marketing and the layered costs that come from being part of an equity investment structure. Still, you're getting an actual manufacturer versus a rebrander.

What kind of pricing are you seeing on these two?

Lisa, the best way to buy that tub is to have me make the introduction to either the expo people or the dealer, whichever you prefer. When I get involved, you're covered under my buyer's protection service, and that's going to be a huge advantage for you.

First, tell me what price you got quoted. I can probably get you a better deal on that right off the bat.

Second, once I make the introduction, here's what the buyer's protection service actually means: if anything goes wrong and you don't get good service or they screw you around, you don't have to fight it out one-on-one. You just call me and I get involved and handle it. That's going to be way more effective than trying to sort out your own problems.

The reason is simple. We help customers buy thousands of hot tubs every year and we control tens of millions of dollars worth of hot tub purchases annually. When we contact a seller, they respond very differently than when an individual customer tries to work things out on their own. They know we're not going away and we're not a one-time customer. That leverage makes a real difference.

So send me the price you got, and let's get you taken care of the right way.

Ill have Bill reach out to help you. on the @yahoo email you provided.

Hi there, and thanks for reaching out. I appreciate you sharing all the details on this.

Here's my take: replacing the entire tub really doesn't make sense in this situation. The parts that failed, the circulation pump and controller, these aren't structural issues like a cracked shell or bad plumbing. They're replaceable components that you're going to swap out multiple times over the life of the hot tub anyway. The fact that you had an early failure on one of them happens, and it could stem from any number of things like a power surge or just a faulty controller board.

I'd focus on getting Master Spas to replace those parts in your tub and call it done. Don't worry about pushing for the Balboa pump retrofit. The Laing pump is a solid pump and it's used across a lot of different brands. It's not going to be any significant upgrade from what you have, and honestly, I believe the factory spec sheets for 2025 and 2026 models are indeed built with Laing pumps as they're telling you.

I get that it's frustrating when something fails early on a purchase that size, but this is a straightforward repair situation, not a lemon situation. Let them replace the failed components and you'll be good to go. Your local tech can handle the installation onsite without any issues.

You've got a solid tub. This just happens sometimes with any brand.

if its a small area any spry foam from home depot will do the job, or even a piece of fiberglass pink in a bag loosely fit into the hole.

Yeah, nanobubble technology does have some real science behind it. The basic premise is solid: the smaller the bubbles, the more contact area you get between the ozone or oxygen in those bubbles and the water. That part checks out.

Here's where the marketing gets ahead of reality, though. Jacuzzi makes it sound like they're injecting some kind of medical-grade oxygen enrichment system into the tub. They're not. There's no oxygen tank, no oxygen enrichment system at all. What they're actually doing is injecting air through nanobubbles, probably combined with ozone. That's it.

The thing is, every hot tub already has micro diffusers that break bubbles down really small anyway. And from the feedback we're getting from customers in the field, the nanobubble system works fine, but it's definitely not groundbreaking. It's really no better than any of the other ozone systems out there.

If you want to spend money on an onboard chemical reduction system that actually delivers, look at the on-demand salt water systems. Those are the real cutting edge right now. They use very low salt levels so there's no corrosion risk, they monitor your water automatically, and they produce chlorine on demand only when your levels drop. Super easy to manage and you can keep your water incredibly stable.

As for everything else, AOP, ozone, UV, microsilk, nanobubbles—they're all oversold. If you want to avoid salt systems, stick with enzyme products like Spa Marvel or good additives. They're more effective at keeping your water balanced and your chemical levels low.

do you have any pricing? and models?

Not a lot fo differnece really, Coast is Canadian so if your int he US tarrifs will drive that price up a lot, Cal is US build.

Call weakness is the lower end cradle supported shell, I toured the factory and can tell you that marketing spin about the steel in the shell is spin bling, the strips are so thin they do nothing except flesh out a marketing story. they do clamp the lines, and you can get a full foam upgrade.

The coast is no clamps, mid end shell, again nothing terrible nothing special, solid middle of the road.

Where are you and what prices are you seeing?

Kelowna. $10,900 for the Coast Omega and $8,900 for the Cal 743.

wait is that CDN$ in BC?

OK first if massage is your goal then the main thing you want to look at is the placement of the large high flow therapy massage jets, they are the expensive jets, small jets feel aggressive but they are cheap low flow jets and are nowhere near as effective for long term muscle tension release. And ignore the BS about some special magic jet design lol its pure marketing hype esp with the Sundance, that's nearly 20 year old tech and they keep swinging it around like its some cutting edge design :-) Modern jet systems all work well and texture water well. here is a video explainer... https://youtu.be/pn2rdgv8yOc?si=5fhS_HpYdqWrLp-e

Now the brands and build.

The lowest on that list is the The Hot springs, this is a massive corporate owner called Masco, they are insanely good at marketing, branding etc. but these big corporate brands are not the best built and they are overpriced by a lot, and one of the things these corporate or equity owners do for profits is make sure nothing else fits their spas except the non compliant weird connections and build, not for any advantage other than marketing and capturing you for life by eliminating your ability to buy the off the shelf top end parts. Build wise its decent but the jetting is crap. its got 6 of the high flow therapy jets, 3 of the mid flows and the rest are cheap low flow jets esp in the neck and shoulder area. between the corporate laying costs and the import tariffs because its made in Mexico your paying easily $3-4k more than its worth, a tub like this should be in the $11-12k range max.

Sundance is a similar story, owned my a massive equity group and part of the jacuzzi pile, its again not a bad tub but made in Mexico, corporate marketing machine and overpriced. jetting wise its slightly better then the Hot Springs and it uses a better heating and control system from Balboa but again they made all the board mounts and plugs non compliant so your stuck in the expensive dealer eco system. also no real neck shoulder or foot jetting. They just clamp the lines no glue. same as the hot springs.

Now the Artesian as the better of the lot, they were also acquired a few years back and they just glue, no clamps on the lines but everything else is pretty good.

what pricing did you get?

Thank you so much for your suggestions and information. The final choice is between Sundance Chelsea 780 (20K), Hot Springs Limelight Flash (19K) and Artesian Glen Piper (close to 14K). Other option I was considering is Costco Hot Tub and local servicemen (found a really good one). 1. Among the 3, which one would you recommend, Artesian? 2. If Costco, which one is better Strong or Aquatera 3. Which model among these 2 from Costco? They are like 7 to 9K, so why not get it and have excellent service support? Thanks again

Those Sundance pricing points are absolutely ridiculous. The Chelsea at twenty grand is way overpriced, and the Flash at nineteen thousand is just as bad. Both the Limelight Flash and Chelsea should be sitting around twelve to thirteen thousand, maybe fourteen at the high end.

The fourteen K on the Piper Glen is actually not a bad price. You're looking at similar pricing to what you'd pay for a Twilight series, which is worth looking at as they give you a better jet package plus glued and clamped lines.

If you're looking at factory direct options, skip the Costco route and look at Instinct Spas. Master Spas builds those and they're solid. You're getting fully self-supported shells, glued and clamped plumbing, and full foam insulation. The build quality is good, they use top-end parts that you can source online for next day delivery, and you're looking at eighty-six hundred dollars delivered and installed with a premium 5" cover For that price, you're getting better jetting, better insulation, and better overall build quality than anything you're going to pull off the shelf at a mass merchant.

https://instinctspas.com/

Which Master SpA series would you recommend that is similar to Sundance Chelsee/Optima or Cal SpA Pismo or Calera Niagara. and What price should I pay for the Master? I am going for an expo this weekend which will have Master SpAs. Thank you.

let me know what prices you get we can hook you up with them after the show for the the same or better prices, the Sundance Chelsea, Cal spa Pismo and Caldera Niagara all have similar jet packages to the Clarity, or Legacy lines, a few of the larger expensive high flow jets and lots of the smaller lower cost low flow jets.

The twilight has a more expensive jet package than any of these.

I'll get Bill to reach out with pricing options, what prices do you have on those?

Caldera Salinas 16K. Sundance 16.5K. Which Master SpA twilight, 7.25? Thanks a lot

Those prices are high ill get bill to reach out we can get the pricing better and he can find you prices for the 7.25

Ok these 3 spas are very good all round but there are some differences.

Start with the build quality, all three are solid reliable spas with high end self supporting shells, good timber frames, and full foam insulation systems. the plus on the Twilight and the instinct over the jacuzzi are jacuzzi clamps the plumbing lines, the other two glue and clamp. the arts for the jacuzzi balboa system have a lot of meaningless alterations to stop you being able to source parts, you need to buy their version which isn't any better but will cost you a lot more, because of this local reliable dealer is needed because although there are service centers everywhere now for hot tubs they often will not work on brands with proprietary parts and non compliant builds because its just a pain in the ass to get parts for an often longer wait times. The Twilight parts list is much cleaner and the instinct was designed with all the top end parts 100% compliant so you can get replacements anywhere fast usually next day delivered from multiple sources.

Jacuzzi has been tossed around for years between equity investors and is currently owned my a European equity group, its also made in Mexico, equity brands are $2000 more expensive privately held companies, here is a decent breakdown of the ownership game. https://www.reddit.com/r/HotTubUniversity/comments/1vmbpg5/who_owns_your_brand_matters/

now for performance jetting. Mass age jetting is all about the size of the jet, big jets are expensive and flow a lot more water, small jets are more about brochure count :-) https://youtu.be/pn2rdgv8yOc?si=uUeFpWUTnXRrzImo

the instinct and J-345 are very similar the instinct has a better neck and shoulder jets package but on everything else they are similar, the twilight has a lot more of the high flow jets than the other 2 and is a class above for therapy massage.

The guys that own the 2 closest master locations are huge, you wont have service issues but i can get you better pricing if you go twilight through the same sellers and then your under my buyers protection umbrella and that guarantees a better level of service. If you do this alone your dealing with the sales floor, we bypass that and that saves the seller money, money they use to pay for your buyers protection service and discounts to you :-) it also puts you in a special little safe zone, because they now know if your not happy then instead of battling one on one your going to hit me up and ill step in and deal with them, that's a whole different picture because were battling with a much bigger hammer :-)

Ill get Bill to reach out with options for you.

why so small, and whats the budget?

what size and budget range are we talking?

No unfortunately but we have deals for very similar units there i can get bill to reach out with some options

Yes, I'm interested in a similar unit.

Sure what options are in nova scotia

Kc hot tubs, and Hot tub universe would be the two id look at, good tubs good ser vice etc, im from there :-) did you check your email? bill sent you some info he lives there and knows all the sellers.

No I didnt receive any emails .

check your spam search hottubuniversity i reached out to him again he will email you again

what's the slope over 7 or 8 feet?

Tall people like the contoured seating, it drops way lower in the water for your but then has a longer rake for your legs... try instinct spas. also built like a tank, priced factory direct from the largest and oldest builder in the US and covered by my buyers protection for after care if you have issues... https://instinctspas.com/

These small guys are all either acquired, not worth acquiring and dying or gone. They cant play in this pool anymore no economy of scale, no buying power, they are always either overpriced or cut corner fabrication to try and stay relevant...

Over all the Jacuzzi is a better build the JLX looks nice if you don't mind paying way too much for what should be a $14k tub... made in mexico and equity investor ownership means big corporate layering, marketing and terrify costs.

They are all viable options, touch screens suck, lots of brands going back to basic button systems, wifi is unreliable on tubs the water is a very good RF shield, they tend to be glitchy.

That's usually a heater circuit communication error or temperature sensor fault. Since you replaced the pressure switch and it's still showing, the issue is almost certainly not the pressure switch.

For Hot Springs Relay specifically, check this:

Temperature Sensor (Thermistor) — This is the most common culprit:
Located near/in the heater assembly
Look for a small probe with a wire connected to it
Check the connector for corrosion or loose fit
Try disconnecting and reconnecting the sensor connector (turn power off first)
If wet or corroded inside, dry it out carefully
Heater Element connections:
The heater element terminals often corrode on Hot Springs units
Clean any white/green corrosion off the metal terminals with a wire brush or fine sandpaper
Ensure the spade connectors are tight and making full contact
Heater Relay/Contactor:
Inside the control box, there's a relay that activates the heater
Listen/feel for a click sound when you turn up the temperature
If no click = relay failure (needs replacement)
Full power reset:
Turn off breaker for 2 full minutes (not just 30 seconds)
Turn back on
See if error clears

What do you hear/feel when you turn up the temperature? Does the relay click? Does the water feel like it's even trying to heat, or is it completely cold?

Also—is the pump running normally? (circulation working?)

Beachcomber is a well made spa, but there are not 128 jets :-) that is marking bullshit supreme. These guys are the only brand in the world that fools you by counting all the holes in all the jets and pretends they are individual jets good old Keith Scott fancied himself a marketing Guru and despite many many attempts by many people he held steadfast to the folly. It's a 28 jet single pump tub (or something close) Worth around $11k full pop.

They also have a non removable skirt which means if you ever have a leak your screwed...

I like the brand in general, but the story of the Costco deal is a myth, is it a bad buy? No... Is it a great Buy premium tub at some magical price? Also No.

What do you want in this purchase?

Because as a simple reliable non repairable soaker its a decent buy, but don't buy into I'm buying a high end therapy tub at a great price either.

What's the budget and wants?

The Maple M550 is a Canadian-made rodcut so if you're in the US, it's going to be priced high because of the tariff hit. Build quality-wise, it's better than most but below top-tier products. Like the shell, they build a decent shell. Hand-rolled fiberglass is the gold standard but the finished weight is low—almost 1/3 less glass than top builders are using, which is a red flag for sure.

Same goes for the frame: it has nice treated 2x4 construction, but it's stapled together :-( Better builders are screwing the frame or, even better using gusset plates. It's not going to handle transport on its side very well, and with the lighter weight shell, that's even more worrisome.
They look like they use compression fittings on the shell, which is good, and they glue and clamp the manifold lines, giving them a high score on the plumbing reliability. However, the insulation is a low cost cheap perimeter system so if you're in a cold climate, that tub is going to be more expensive to run. 

That particular model is a mid end jet package at best, it's not going to score high on the therapy massage scale primarily because they are using almost entirely cheap, small, low-flow jets. They feel aggressive but are nowhere near as effective for massage as the expensive, large, high-flow therapy massage jets. This is a common ploy it make the brochure read great!!! hell 65 jets!!! but they're all the cheap low-flow jets, and the 12 good 5" massage jets they do have all target the same areas. It's a bad layout; it will only provide effective massage for the lower and mid back. There is no decent neck and shoulder jetting. similarly the floor jet is a 5" high flow but for really good foot jet systems you would  have a couole of the 10" monsters down there, so again pretty middle of the road. 

Overall, I would say if the price is good, it's a decent buy and a lot better than most of the crap out there. but if it's over $10k us ($14k cdn) then move on.

What price are you seeing and where are you?

OK, first, the Marquis vector. Marquis is a pretty solid brand overall, but when it was acquired they closed the West Coast plant, and it's now part of Artesian Spas. Equity buyouts always drive prices up, and quality always drops, that's how equity operates. They no longer clamp the plumbing lines and they are $1500 more expensive for no reason other than corporate layering, costs, and marketing spend. In my opinion, the Vector series is not a good tub to buy. I had one in for review and we tore it apart. The flimsy jet faces really stopped me; they are cheap and I don't think they will stand up as reliably as the standard jets. That's just the beginning, though—they are a goofy one off design and if they discontinue that jet, you'll never get parts down the road. I'd go with one of their other models if I were buying Marquis, something with the standard CMP jet used on brands everywhere including the rest of the marquis line and the Artesian line.

What price?

Now to Bullfrog spas. They are well built overall but the shell is a cheaper cradle supported shell, which is the biggest part of the purchase. But there is something else here: The Clam is a low end jet package with all cheap, small, low-flow jets. There is no way this tub should be over $8k
What price are you seeing?

Look service is always a risk in any scenario, local service does not ensure good service. I have seen hundreds of cases of pissed off customers who bought locally.

The second part is that some brands, like Master and Artesian, are enginered for easy repairability, common conections and pparts that can be bought almost anywhere, everything is plug and play and parts can be swapped by anyone who can use a screwgun. Then there are brands that are intentionally non-compliant like Hot Springs, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Sundance. They have goofy connections and mounts and parts not to provide you a better experience but to lock you into the expensive dealer ecosystem.

But here is the real takeaway: No matter what you buy get us to introduce you to the seller first. Then they know you are under our buyers protection umbrella, that is you best guarantee of good service no matter what or how you buy. Normally if you have an issue, it's a one-on-one fight between you and the seller. But when we make the introduction they know you're in our buyer pool. If you have an issue, you're not going to fight with them; you're going to text me and I'm going to fight with them. My fight carries the weight of thousands of annual hot tub purchases and the very real power of a platform that has been running for 15 years and sees over 100,000 hot tub buyers a year! No seller wants to be on the bad side of that lol

I'll get Bill to reach out with pricing through that same seller you are talking to. We know the owners, so we skip the sales floor and go right to the top.

thanks for info, We have looked at lots of different tubs and the info you all share on here is 100% correct once you look behind the panels yo see the short cuts.

First I would stay away from round tubs, they are cramped and have no foot space.

You can not get a really well built tub below about $7500, you just have to cut corners, the math does not work. id go with a good used unit at $5g's, something easily repairable and reliable

Thanks for your reply. I am looking at a Viking P+ - this is a square model - 78" x 78" x 34". I understand the suggestion of a used tub, however that may still leave me with the same issue of needing to upgrade my electricity, which I am not interested in doing. Do you have a reccomendation of a plug and play model?

This is not a real manufacturer, it's part of a growing trend we call virtual manufacturers. Here is the deal: these guys buy containers of hot tubs from China. Then they rebrand them as Platinum Spas and spin up all the marketing and brochures to make it look like they are a manufacturer. This is the worst case scenario and I would never recommend you buy a tub from a dealer who bought a tub from a rebrander who bought a tub from a manufacturer :-) they paid around $3k for that tub and now some spin artist is trying to tell you its worth $8k???

This is absolutely the worst case scenario :-)

Hi Carolyn.

Yes Master does make them and depending on what you are looking for some of the other lines from master might be your move, but here is the conflict.

The dealer can't sell you an Instinct spa, but if you buy it from the factory direct website that dealer will get the profit from the sale and they will deliver and install it. What you're running into here is one of a couple of possible things.

1. The salesperson you spoke to doesn't get the commission from the instinct sale, it's part of why the price is cheaper :-) When you look at any hot tub anywhere 30% of its cost is branding, marketing, advertising, brochures, sales commissions, and showroom floor space. That's reality: it costs that much to get a tub in front of enough people unless you do what they did, which was to build it to our spec and get us to put it in front of people because we don't need 30% :-) We already have most of the hot tub buyers coming here.2. Nobody makes as much money on the instinct as they would selling you a more expensive hot tub. There is significantly more profit in a $12k - $15k tub than in an $8500 hot tub :-) simple as that, a dealer is always going to push you up the ladder if they can, they make more money selling you a higher end spa :-) 
3. Some dealers don't get it :) Some dealers see Instinct as competing with them and reducing their profits, but they don't realise that they were never competitive in the sub-$10k hot tub world, that world was and still is dominated by cheap tubs sold by corporate mass merchant sellers. All those sales happen whether Instinct exists or not; that's what some dealers miss. The reality is Instinct allows them to compete in that market with a better built product and with better back up and support without added costs! In the real world, that is always a net gain for the dealer.

The next question is what you want out of this tub. While the Instinct is built just as well has a mid to upper end jet package, if your looking for a real high end massage spa in the $14k+ range then Twilight might be a better buy.

I'll get Bill to reach out to you; he can help nail down what tub, line and model will work best for you and help you get the prices dialed in :-)

I asked the person communicating with me why he didn't recommend Instinct Spas. He said they have "inferior jet packages". He said if I wanted a more affordable option (I had also requested information and pricing on 2 Twilight Series spas) he said I should look at Legacy Whirlpool line. This is our first spa. We have limited space and budget. It is for relaxation, not therapy. I think the Instinct Spa is what we want, but hate to purchase it without trying it.

Both Legacy and Instinct tubs come from the same builder and both tubs use the same jetting :-) even the jet count and sizes are similar, both are great tubs and both would be good buys.

Now if you are going to Twilight then he is 100% right the jet package is better on the twilight for sure.

did you get pricing yet?

Dominion spas is not a real manufacturer, stay away. these guys like so many others buy in containers of cheap $3500 hot tubs from China, rebrand them do new marketing brochures etc then sell them to dealers pretending to be manufacturers by they time you see them repackaged with cute slick branding they are twice what they are worth.

Instinct is made by master... shhhh... lol

ill get bill to reach out he know the local sellers and will get you better pricing on the master, or any other tub...

Thank you. The nearest Master Spa dealer for me is Ann Arbor, MI

Service is available near you for any of the good brands with standard construction. Honestly, dealers are an old, tired, and expensive mode of selling products. That's why, in the real world only a small amount of hot tubs are still bought this way something like 15-20% the rest are bought online or from mass merchants, etc.

That reality has been ongoing for a decade and with hundreds of thousands of hot tubs in the field with no dealers there is now a rich ecosystem of service companies that service hot tubs better, in most cases than local sellers :-)

I'm sure we can find you several good tubs from several good builders around there. We also have access to wholesale sellers and factory direct deals, and local sellers will give me better prices than they will to you :-)

The other advantage of getting us to help is that if you buy a hot tub from a local seller or online and have a conflict you are one on one with that seller, fighting a losing battle. If we are involved that seller knows that if you are unhappy you are going to reach out to me and under my buyer protection umbrella, I'm going to call him... That's a very different conversation because I'm not one tub from one buyer :--) I'm $30 million in annual hot tub buys and a platform that has so much hot tub buyer traffic that it could make the difference between survival, he is going to treat you very well...

I'll get Bill to reach out; he knows all the sellers and service people there and can point you in the right direction.

Master builds the Instinct, its just private labeled for Hot tub university customers exclusively, that's how we got the price down from the instore price of $11-$12k to $8500, we cut all the marketing, advertising, sales support etc.

Also for vertically challenged forget getting the right fit, its not going to happen without major tradeoffs, instead get a good weighted spa seat it will lift her up so that the jets hit her in the right areas.

NO

1- The only reason instinct spas is not $11-$12k is because the cost of dealer showroom space, marketing and advertising was removed. every other tub in this price range still has the 30% for the cost of that in it so when you see another tub at $8500 for instance it can not possibly be the build quality and jet package of Instinct because the ONLY way you can remove that cost and still get it in front of enough customers is if you were to find a unicorn like us that already has massive organic traffic, then partner with us to build it the way we demand...

Somewhere around 20% of hot tubs are bought through dealers, wet tests wont tell you much, in fact a lot of people make bad decisions because of a wet test. the problem is the cheap low flow jets "feel" aggressive and powerful because its a tiny stream of water under high pressure but there is no volume, so its really doing very little for long term muscle tension relief, then the large, expensive high flow therapy massage jets feel weak because its 10x more water flow so its spread out a lot more but it moves the whole muscle mass and for long term muscle tension relief its what will make the difference. other than that forget comfort seats etc once you are submersed you are floating...

not much difference in the base chemicals but if you want easy to manage water the spa marvel system is our best performer to date... here is a link for easy to manage water: https://youtu.be/rysiCHlKgg0?si=dXJLFyyeoVrgc0Cl

and here is the link tot he product: https://hottubuniversity.myshopify.com/products/spa-marvel-trio-kit

Your old hot springs was back before buyouts and relocation to Mexico and corporate slashing of build quality to augment marketing and price increases to cover dividends, its a shadow of the brand it once was.

A good well built tub can be dragged on a sled no issue, a cheap tub is going to suffer any and every move it makes... most tubs are delivered easily with 2 men and a drag sled or dolly. I've personally loaded, delivered, unloaded and handled thousands of hot tubs.

The key here is a solid self supporting shell with a good frame, and sealed sides, the base should not matter much because its sitting on concrete for gods sake, usually rot in side a hot tub is from leaks not out side water. Then a good reliable plumbing system using GFlue and clamps and compression fit housings, parts that are the top north American OEM stuff you can get anywhere. then they last and are repairable.

what's the budget?

Thank you. My budget is the same for a Hot Springs Beam or Caldera Tarino. Where ever I buy a hot tub, I am requesting 4 men, one on each side and not having a hot tub with a horizontal crack along the wood supporting base. . I heard the crack as the men were struggling to drag the 700 pound hot tub on its side across thick grass and stone walk way. I decided to not purchase the Jacuzzi J255 with reservations on the product. I went to a different higher end distributor/dealer and am now considering the Caldera Tarino due to size height and dimensions and also not wanting a 220 power outlet as I already have a 110 outlet in place. They are providing me with the higher end white glove delivery service with 4 to 5 men to move the hot tub to its final resting place and hopefully, this time unlike Hot Springs in the trash. I do like the exterior shell better on the Caldera, as it is stronger and thicker vs. the thin Hot Springs cabinet. I more than likely will not buy the salt system without the smart IQ system. The Tarino has salt ready but not the Smart IQ.. Thoughts on Salt vs Bromine (using floaters) ? Any other suggestions on brands I should consider before I lock myself in and purchase the hot tub? I used Bromine tabs in a floater for 20 years and did not have problem. I tested my water weekly and drained with fresh water every 1.5 months. I like clean fresh water and not overly processed water. My old spa did not have the finicky acrylic shells made today. I understand I am locked into proprietary parts , but I have the dealer repair department and this company has been in business for a long time with a large clientele bases with a very good reputation. Having a full repair department and parts is important with quick service-repairs. I understand Spas aren’t built like they were years ago which is really a shame. Thanks for your thoughts.

you will pay another 500 for that delivery and i don't mean to be funny its not a real thing that is needed, i have delivered an 8 footer on its side on a dolly including getting it off the trailer and laying it down flat by myself... 2 men is the delivery one bad delivery alongside thousands successful does not mean the method is flawed :-)

Caldera is hot springs, lol same factories in Mexico same corporate dogs same quality.

The new on demand salt system yes, caldera/Hot springs old timer based system no...

its hilarious that they price this on the site for $13k lol this is a basic tub worth 7-8k

Thank you for your advice and most appreciated,🥰 especially the thoughts on the true value of Hot Springs or Caldera. I am going forward with the Caldera tub, realizing it is the same company & same plant and slightly less fancy and dumbed down version off their lines. Basically a Cadillac compared to a Buick or Chevy. What is important is the construction, glued and clamped lines, and better made fiberglass shell and the not so good propriety parts scheme. I found a brand new tub, and the dealer told me they will deliver and not charge me extra with 4 men balancing the tub with the owner personally assisting in the safe delivery of the hot tub. They want to clear this tub along with the other Caldera show room floor models in their store. I showed them the 2 factory authorized franchise Hot Springs, botched delivery photos. They totally understood and empathized, I had TWO delivery failures, of which the distributor managed to destroy 2 brand new beautiful hot tubs. The Hot Springs distributor told me they could fix anything and not to worry. I bet that distributor has lots of experience repairing similar botched deliveries. They forgot one important legal point, I paid for a perfect hot tub and not a damaged hot tub and they twice Violated the Uniform Commercial Code, Perfect Tender Act damaging and delivering a new hot tub, of which I paid full sticker retail price. This would be similar to a new car dealer telling you they have the only available white car on the lot , however , a person taking a test drive earlier in the week, had a fender bender, but as the song goes, “don’t worry, be happy”and their body shop can repair anything! No one in their right mind would buy a new car, at the sticker price tag, and one involved in a car accident with a person hitting the side of the dealership building. 🙄 I appreciate the salt system info and totally agree. I do not plan on using the Salt System on the Caldera tub and unlike the Sister Hot Spring line, Caldera does not offer the smart IQ board.. As you said older version and basic tub. I plan on using bromine tabs, in a floater, of which I have used for 20 years without issue. Do you agree or disagree it will be acceptable and safe to use? Any system has corrosive potential and from what I have come to the conclusion after hearing all the sales pitches and reading from your very informative site, the key is keeping the chemicals balanced,, clean and within the safe operating limits, not over killing the hot tub with a chemical soup. Anything be it Salt, Bromine or Chlorine at high levels or with the other important chemistry levels out of line, causes damage to the functioning hot tub internally and the finicky acrylic shells. Today, I found as you suggested a great price on a new 2026 tub, priced before tax in the mid 9’s with tax and delivery, exactly near what you said is the true retail worth. This tub is a floor model no water ever placed in the tub and it was built in March of 26, with kfull factory warranty. I saw the model in person, no damage what so ever and viewed the inside of the tub with cabinet panels removed. When the dealer took the panels off, even the cord was still wrapped in the factory sealed bag and needed to be wired to the mother board. This store is shedding the the Caldera line and the hot tub comes with the full warranty. I spoke with Caldera and they stated they will stand behind the warranty, as it a new hot tub, within a still legal Caldera spa but one that is in the process of being terminated , yet Watkins in this instance has to stand behind this as a factory warranty hot tub as their contract has not been legally terminated. Watkins will then assign once registered on line to the new, territory protected local dealer and not to their happiness either. Unusual situation contractually. This entire exclusivity territory line scheme is a retail price fixing trap, giving the consumer basically 1 choice in their market place, where ever you live, eliminating competitive pricing, ensuring high profits and trapping the customer in their geographic area. Distributors can not cross geographic maps and sell outside of their territory or they will be penalized and lose their ability to sell in the market place. Many hot tub companies do the same thing another is..Jacuzzi with the exclusivity consumer scheme. Very sad to understand the background theory of the retail selling tactics of hot tub retail stores and their parent company. Thank you advising and now I know the tubs true retail value $7-8,000.00 of which with tax, delivery and a white glove delivery with 4 strong men (Superman, Batman, Hulk Hogan and Robin as a side kick) personally are delivering this hot tub with the best care possible. (Of course anything can go wrong and as the old saying things happen in 3’s..sure hope not or I will just give up and buy a blow up baby pool and forget the entire hot tub scene.) 😳😁 Thanks again for all the great info about hot tubs and your very helpful knowledge and suggestions. Let me know about using bromine tabs in a floater..

Awesome you won!

Bromine is fine and if you want to keep it really simple (bromine or chlorine) use an additive like spa marvel... see this video explainer, and tips and tricks video.

https://youtu.be/rysiCHlKgg0?si=uQBG-a3t-byHRfdo

you can get it here: https://hottubuniversity.myshopify.com/products/spa-marvel-trio-kit

Pop the sides off, find the wet spot.

Hi Silvia,

We want to talk about the enclosure, you don't want to restrict access to the tub for service!, we can help you with the layout and design.

What prices did you get, be careful people try and take advantage esp single or older folks like us lol

Its crazy all the sales nonsense, Hydropool is part of jacuzzi but its their cheap line and I would stay away, the best thing about the brand is the wonderful sales pitch wrapping up a mid end build and a pile of gimmicks.

Want me to get bill to reach out, he can chat about the enclosure and get the pricing down for you .

My courtyard is 94”x 134” right now I really need to know which brands I should be looking at for therapeutic. Who do you think are the best manufacturers? I would prefer made in the USA..seems allot have gone to Mexico. So is Artisan middle of the road?

Artesian is good, not top but certainly a good reliable brand overall, US made but equity investor owned so that means higher prices.

Master is really good, same general build as Artesian but they glue and clamp the plumbing whereas Artesian just glues. the Largest and oldest US builder and the last big player still privately held.

what budget are your working with?

My concern right now is not money but the best for my body..obviously want to get best price for what I am purchasing..the world is full of greed..I do not want to do stupid but I have money for the best…as long as it is the best for my body.

Yeah and almost all the hot tub companies have been eaten up by equity investment companies and that makes it 10 times worse, these corporate greed machines are killing this industry.

check you email, (the AOL one you gave us, bill will help you get better prices with your local sellers, guide you on finding brands around that are reliable and make sure you dont get taken for a ride on the prices... email should have hottubuniversity in it so just search your spam or inbox for that

Aquavoss is the no where land. they don't make anything but play themselves off as a manufacturer, they are basically a rebrander, they buy from a manufacturer, do the marketing and then resell to dealers who sell to you. There are a ton of these virtual manufacturers it always a great story but when you unravel the threads its a reseller...

Cal Spa is middle of the road, its a lower end cradle supported shell and unless you pay for the full foam upgrade its a low end insulation package. but the gig problem is the jets are all the cheapest low flow small jets you can buy, there is very little therapy value in this machine and a lot of the reason that twilight was a lot more expensive is it has a high end self supported shell that will last, a good top end insulation package and most importantly a lot of the high flow large expensive therapy massage jets that will really make a difference.

You have bounced from the top to the bottom.

right in the sweet spot would be the instinct spa. top end build with a heavy self supporting shell, glued and clamped plumbing, top end insulation and parts and $8500 for a 40 jet twin pump unit with a good mix of the larger high flow therapy jets.

You are unlikely to use a warranty in the first 3-5 years even on a well made spa, You can extend the warranty for about $500 to a 3 year but I would not bother, almost all warranty work is in the first 3-6 months, if there are no issues out of the gate you likely will not have issues for 5 years.

Thanks! One more question. The Vital model has the spa seat which my wife is leaning towards, but I am concerned about the issue of her floating that you mentioned in another article. Do you think this would be an issue with the Vital or should we go with the Instinct?

all loungers a more floaty than seats. but you can always get a good weighted spa cushion and put it in your lap to hold you down.