Artesian Brand Review

In North America, "220 V", "230 V", and "240 V" are often used somewhat interchangeably for equipment that runs on standard residential split-phase power, Your electrician for sure know this you are fine .

Thanks I appreciate it :-) Ill get bill to find you pricing for your area on the twilight, they are both great spas.

There is very little difference between the TS 8.2 or TS 7.2 other than a larger footwell and a few more jets on the 8.2

Ill get bill to reach out to you with some more information and some free stuff we can get you.

Thank you, very much appreciated!

Evelyn

Roger,

These kinds of questions are only hard if you've got something to hide.

We don't.

For 15 years I've been saying the same thing. Build a strong self supported shell. Glue and clamp the plumbing. Use compression fittings. Full foam it properly. Use quality non proprietary parts. Stay away from marketing gimmicks and focus on how the thing is actually built.

The funny part is that every one of those things is also the expensive way to build a hot tub.

The industry changed around us. We didn't.

What happened is that a huge chunk of the industry got rolled up by equity investors. You'll find multiple brands owned by the same parent company, built in the same factories, with completely different marketing stories and completely different claims about quality. A lot of what you're seeing online is marketing fighting marketing.

As for HTU, there are really two realities.

First, the people who have actually used our service tend to love us. In fifteen years I've never had an unresolved customer complaint. We do what we say we're going to do. We communicate. We help before the sale and after the sale.

Second, I'm probably hated by more industry people than I'm loved by.

Even some of the brands I like don't always love me.

Why?

Because I refuse to play the game.

I don't rotate my recommendations every year based on who's buying ads. I don't suddenly decide a tub with an unclamped plumbing system is great because somebody wrote a sponsorship check. I keep pointing buyers toward the handful of manufacturers that still do most of the important things right.

That makes a lot of friends with consumers.

It doesn't make many friends with marketing departments.

One thing you'll notice about most of the negative stuff is that it's almost always second hand.

"I heard."

"My buddy said."

"Someone online told me."

What you rarely see is someone saying, "I used HTU, they promised X, delivered Y, and here's the proof."

Because we do exactly what we say we do.

At the end of the day, don't trust me. Don't trust the brands. Don't trust the dealers.

Look at the construction.

How is the shell built?

Is the plumbing glued and clamped?

Is it full foam?

Are the parts common and serviceable?

Who owns the company?

Answer those questions and most of the marketing noise disappears.

The reason people get frustrated shopping for hot tubs is that they're trying to compare marketing stories. That's impossible. Compare construction and ownership instead, and it gets a lot simpler.

So no, I don't blame you for being frustrated. Frankly, the industry has earned a lot of that skepticism.

The good news is that there are still some very good hot tubs being built.

What brands and models are actually on your shortlist right now?

Thanks for the reply. I do appreciate the insight and your candidness. Short list is: Caldera (Reunion), which is around $15k at a local dealer. I saw the Twilight 8.25 (also ~$15k) at a hot tub expo and it seemed decent. Trying to find local dealers who have the Artesian Brand. But honestly, I feel like a squirrel with a a 10 second attention span. I see something posted about a brand (good or bad) and go down that rabbit hole, researching for 45 minutes, and then have no idea what how I started going down that path in the first place.
One thing I didn't mention earlier is that many buyers are negative on Master Spas for their advertised 5-Year Parts & Labor Warranty which results in a $300 service call by a technician (if you can find one locally). Salespeople I've spoken with about after-purchase support from Master Spas have been VERY evasive and non-specific about what the support model looks like in 2, 3 or 5 years. That's why I'm leaning towards any other brand with a local footprint and presence. I'm in Connecticut with no local showrooms/dealers apparently.

The Caldera Reunion is made in Mexico and owned by Masco, which is a massive corporation. Between the tariff hit and the corporate markup, it's overpriced. Simple as that. It's also a very dealer centric brand.

These guys use a lot of proprietary parts, and that locks you into the dealer ecosystem. Is it a great tub? No. Is it a good tub? Yes.

But look at the jet package.

They're asking around $15,000 for a tub that has five of the six expensive high flow therapy massage jets. Everything else is the cheap little low flow stuff. There's no real neck jet system, and the foot therapy package is pretty basic.

A tub with this kind of jet package should be in the $11,000 range, not $15,000.

Now compare that to the Twilight Series you're looking at.

The jet package isn't even close.

The Twilight carries a huge therapy package that's worth at least $2,500 more than what's in the Caldera. It's loaded with the large high flow therapy jets that actually move muscle mass. It has the reverse molded neck jet system and those two massive foot and leg therapy jets.

These two tubs are simply not comparable from a therapy standpoint.

The other thing people worry about is service.

Here's the reality.

The best service guarantee you can get is me.

Because of the volume we do, our collective bargaining power is massive. If I connect you with a seller and you buy a tub, I don't care what brand it is, if that seller doesn't take care of you, don't waste your time fighting them one on one.

Call me.

I'll bring roughly $30 million in annual purchasing power into that conversation, and that discussion is going to go very differently than a customer trying to get answers on their own.

The other thing to understand is that some brands are heavily dealer dependent because they intentionally use proprietary components.

Caldera, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Sundance, these brands are famous for building non standard systems that keep you tied to their dealer network. That's why having a good local dealer matters so much with those products.

Master Spas saw where the market was headed years ago.

Most hot tubs today are not purchased through traditional dealers. Because of that, Master built around service centers instead of relying on large dealer networks.

The result is that you don't see the internet flooded with service complaints about Master Spas. They're the third largest hot tub manufacturer in the world. If service wasn't happening, you'd see endless complaints.

You don't.

In fact, Master consistently ranks alongside the top brands in verified review systems. Their website reviews are also one of the few in the industry that are independently validated by a third party. Master can't filter them, remove them, or decide which ones get published. They can only respond.

For Connecticut specifically, I wouldn't be worried at all.

You have solid service coverage in your area and I don't expect you to have any issues. But if something ever does come up, reach out to me and I'll get it handled fast.

That's one of the advantages of working through us. You're not standing alone if something goes sideways.

We can get you better pricing on both those tubs do you want me to have Bill reach out to you with some cleaner pricing?

For the last 15 years we've been saying the same five things matter most in a hot tub: a fully supported shell, a proper structural frame, quality insulation, clamped plumbing, and reliable equipment. When we first started evaluating tubs against those standards there were probably 20 manufacturers that consistently checked all five boxes.

Today, that's no longer the case.

The hot tub industry has been heavily consolidated by private equity and large investment groups. Most shoppers don't realize that many of the brands they're comparing are owned by the same parent company, built in the same factories, and sold through different marketing stories. The marketing has gotten slicker, prices have gone up, and in many cases we've seen gradual cost-cutting in construction and materials.

At this point there are only a handful of manufacturers that consistently hit all five points.

Beachcomber remains one of my favorites for overall build quality, durability, and long-term reliability.

Master Spas continues to build a solid product and is one of the few companies still focused on the fundamentals that actually matter.

Jacuzzi and Sundance still produce some excellent models, but you need to be selective. They're now built in Mexico, and we've seen some construction changes creep in over the years. Certain models still meet our standards, while others have moved toward perimeter insulation systems and lighter structural components that I'm not as enthusiastic about. You need to look at the specific model, not just the badge.

There are also a couple of manufacturers right on the fringe.

Bullfrog's X Series is actually a pretty good tub. My issue isn't with the overall build quality—it's that the shell isn't fully cradle-supported. That's one of our five core requirements because it dramatically improves long-term shell reliability. Eliminating that support structure saves money in manufacturing, but it isn't something I'd personally compromise on.

Artesian builds a lot of things right, but they don't consistently clamp their plumbing lines. In regulated industries like marine, industrial processing, and commercial mechanical systems, clamped plumbing is considered the gold standard because it reduces the likelihood of leaks over the life of the product. It's a small detail that makes a big difference over 10–20 years of ownership.

The biggest factor in what I'd recommend is your budget and where you're located.

Tell me roughly what you're looking to spend and what part of the country you're in, and I'll point you toward the best options available in your area.

We don't sell hot tubs. What we do is connect buyers with reputable dealers, help them avoid the games, and back them with our Buyer's Protection Service. Because dealers know we're involved, we typically get straight pricing without the usual back-and-forth, inflated accessory packages, or unnecessary upgrades.

Our buyer group now assists with nearly $30 million in annual hot tub purchases, which gives us a lot of leverage when it comes to keeping dealers honest and making sure customers are treated properly before and after the sale.

What's your budget range, and where are you located? Also, have you received any pricing yet? If you have, send it over and I'll tell you whether you're getting a fair deal.

We are in Colorado, northeast of Denver. Our budget is currently still being decided. I haven't talked to any dealers yet. Reading your buyer's guide was part of my initial research into making sure we get a hot tub that will out-live the HELOC we are going to get to pay for building the addition/enclosure and hot tub itself. We are not looking for an over-the-top party barge. My wife misses living near the ocean and wants to some water to enjoy. I want a place to relieve the aches and pains from work. We want comfortable use year-round (summer and winter) .

Ill get Bill to reach out to you with local options.

OK new the only really well built tub in the $7 or under class is this: https://instinctspas.com/products/natural-instinct

This is a good Used tub in your area and a good price if its running and in good condition. https://www.facebook.com/share/18uRB88AkC/

Thanks for the recommendation. I've since leaning more toward the new market for more security in the purchase. With a budget adjustment of 10-12k,
What are some options you would recommend? 4 seats with a lounger would be preferred...

There are a lot of good tubs in that price range and a lot of junk :-)

Instinct is the best bang for the buck, then Clarity spas, Artesian Island series, and jacuzzi 300 series are all pretty solid choices.

Ill drop you into my new beta program for buyers assistance, bill will reach out with local pricing and options through the local sellers.

So Aspen isn't a badly built Spa but it's also not top and it's overpriced. These small Regional manufacturers can't compete anymore they pay a lot more for parts and they don't have economy of scale. That means you either overpay for a basic build or you overpay for a high-end build either way it's not The Sweet Spot.

Also you say one to three person tub. Second time buyers often say they wish they had more space and the number one check thing second time buyers do is buy bigger tubs. It's mainly because water environments are both space and moving around so if you've got the space rethink the three seaters they're all so not the sweet spot price wise. The best bang for the buck is your seven Footers they're the most commonly built.

Give me an idea of what your budget is?

Also what's important massage therapy ir soaking time?

Are you size restricted for the three-seater or do you have room to fit a 7-footer?

7footer

Bang for the buck the Instinct is impossible to touch for a very simple reason... Every other tub you see has 30% of its price spent on marketing, advertising, branding and dealer showroom space, that's the cost of getting a tub in front of enough buyers.

We leveraged the insane traffic we get organically and teamed up with the biggest builder in the US to offer it direct t consumers, delivered and installed with service. and we were able to strip out the 30% marketing cost... it went from $11-$12k in store to $8600 overnight :-)

https://instinctspas.com/

To get the same build quality and jet package you need to go to Clarity, J-345, X7 all in the $11-$12k price.

Now if you want crazy high end jetting then Twilight, or J-400, Artesian elite are good options in the $13k+ range.

Do you want me to get bill to reach out with firm pricing?

Okay so Cal Spa in general is a reasonably well-built product the weakness is the shell is a regular cradle supported shell. I know they have that big picture about the fiber steel but I was at the factory, I can tell you that that steel is so thin and flimsy it's there for nothing other than the brochure.

Later it also uses a cheap perimeter Installation System so it's not great at heat retention. However I do believe they still offer a full foam upgrade but be careful because they need to be encapsulating the plumbing in open celled foam and they say on their website they use high density to support the plumbing that's very dangerous if they're really covering their plumbing and high density foam it makes an incredibly difficult to find and repair leaks.

As far as the massage therapy this is definitely low to mid end all of the neck and shoulder jets are the small cheap low flow jets. There's only three of the expensive high flow therapy massage Jets those are the large Jets you see at the base of the lounger and the bottom of the main therapy chair. If you're really looking for high-end massage you want to see those large high flow therapy massage jets in areas of your body that you want massage.

Tubs like this should be available in the marketplace with as good or better jet packages better insulation and better shells in the $8600 to $13,000 mark.

What kind of price are you getting from the seller?

Thanks for the advice. We would be paying $9,949.99 for the CalSpa Pacifica Plus model #PPZ-752L.

$9500 is decent for the tub, the shell is upper mid, but insulation is lower end unless you upgrade to the full foam (~$500) but also very few of the larger expensive high flow jets. I toured the factory a few years back.

Comparable tubs:

Vital Instinct: Better shell, better insulation, better jet package, $8600 delivered and installed to the backyard with national service and our Buyers protection service.

Bullfrog X-7 similar shell, better insulation Vs. Calspa quality wise. ~$10k
Clarity spa ~$12k
J-345 ~$12K

Okay first of all there seems to be some misinformation here. The diverter valves you can replace the entire assembly for around $80. Or just replace the internals for $40. If it is just the internals you don't need a service tech for it you literally unthread the top cap by hand when the tub is shut off, pull out the internals, and drop in the new internals and tighten the top ring by hand.

And those orings you had replaced and the fact that your internals need replaced points more to water chemistry. Do you know which chemicals the company that comes and services your job is using? Are you using chlorine tablets?

The O-rings on the pump unions and heater unions of that tub are the same material as every tub in the world.

If you're finding that your tub is getting too hot in the summer it's because it's really efficient at recycling the waste heat from the motor. There are vents in the side of the tubs that can be open and closed so you close them for the winter and you open them for the summer. If there's not vents in your cabinet they can easily be installed cheaply.

I don't think I would be replacing this tub the main thing is the shell it's not leaking Etc is what makes a tub repairable. You have some very minor issues they should not be costing you very much money to fix.

Try and get me a proper list of the chemicals they're using brand and type.

Thank you... I will certainly find out what chemicals they are using. We keep the Frog-ease floating ball in it at all times as well. My husband said they weren't hte diverter valves when I asked him but I will call them myself and ask as well and get back to you.

Awesome ley me know :-)

Nope.

Just checked the log this is the first post from that email. Sorry dude something must have glitched...

The Bueno Jersey is technically built by Wellis in Hungary. That's the brochure answer.

The reality is it's still a budget spa built to hit a price point. We worked with Bueno for a while and sent plenty of customers their way when people were shopping in that sub $7k range. For the money, it's honestly as good as a lot of what's floating around in that category.

But let's not candy coat it.

You're still looking at a cradle supported shell, perimeter insulation, no plumbing clamps, and support after the sale has been pretty rough. The biggest issue isn't usually the tub itself, it's getting help when something goes wrong.

If you're shopping in that price range, I'd probably spend my time looking for a clean used premium tub before I jumped on a new Jersey. A five or six year old quality build with a self supported shell, full foam insulation, and clamped plumbing is often a better long term buy than a brand new budget spa.

Give me your zip code and I'll take a look at what's available around you and see if there's anything worth chasing. What's your zip code?

And whats the max budget?

zip code 78633; budget 7K or less

At $7k you have to get a smaller single pump unit built super well like the instinct spa line or you have to get 2 pump 40 jet units built to a low standard like the Bueno.

or used units... do you want me to find some good used tubs around your area?

Robert,

If your goal is to buy one hot tub and have the best shot at getting 20 years out of it with the fewest headaches possible, the list gets surprisingly short.

The only two manufacturers left that consistently hit all of the major build quality criteria we care about are Master Spas and Jacuzzi. Both use self supported shells, full foam insulation, quality components, and proven manufacturing processes.

Between those two, Master Spas is our preferred recommendation.

The reason is simple. They're privately held and built in the USA. That means less marketing overhead, no equity investors taking a cut, no Mexico tariff exposure, and generally better value for the money. You end up paying for more hot tub and less corporate overhead.

Jacuzzi is still a very good product. I have no problem recommending them. The challenge is that you're often paying an extra couple thousand dollars for brand marketing, distribution layers, and Mexico production costs. The tub is good, the value proposition is usually weaker. Also they alter the connection points on the balboa system to prevent you buying off the shelf versions and locking into thier costly ecosystem for meaningless propritary alterations.

After those two, there are a few brands that get close but miss one or two of the big build quality factors. Artesian, Marquis, and Bullfrog's X Series would fall into that category. Not terrible products, just not as complete from a long term ownership standpoint.

Before I point you toward a specific model line, tell me three things:

1. What's your target budget?

2. Is this mostly relaxation, family use, or serious massage therapy?

3. If therapy is important, what areas of the body are you trying to target, lower back, neck and shoulders, hips, or something else?

Thank you for the information.

To answer your questions: No specific target budget, just a target quality of the product.
Relaxation, massage
As for therapy, all of the above.

Robert,

There's actually a huge range here.

The good news is you do not need to spend $20,000 to get excellent build quality anymore.

A few years ago we worked with the largest hot tub manufacturer in the US on what became the Instinct line. The idea was simple. We already had the audience and traffic, so we stripped out the dealer markup, advertising costs, showroom overhead, and all the options theater that drives pricing up.

The result is a tub that checks all of the major build quality boxes we care about, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, full foam insulation, Balboa controls, quality OEM components, and national service coverage, for roughly $8,500 delivered and installed with the cover included.

If you're comparing similar sized tubs and similar jet packages, an Instinct is competing directly against things like a Jacuzzi J345, Bullfrog X7, or Artesian Island Series.

The difference is those tubs are typically purchased through traditional retail channels, so pricing usually lands somewhere between about $10,500 and $13,000 depending on market and dealer.

That's one reason dealer sales keep shrinking. Consumers are figuring out they don't necessarily need a showroom in the middle.

Now, if your goal is maximum therapy and massage performance, that's where the conversation changes.

The secret is not pump horsepower, magic jet technology, or whatever marketing story happens to be popular this year.

Therapy comes from large high flow jets.

Big jets move muscle mass. Small jets are cheap. That's really the whole game.

When you move into products like the Master Spas Twilight Series, Jacuzzi 400 Series, or Artesian Elite Series, you're paying for substantially larger and more expensive therapy jet packages. That's where the real step up happens.

Expect that category to run roughly $13,000 to $20,000 depending on size and market.

For someone focused on relaxation, massage, long term ownership, and quality over price, I'd personally narrow the discussion to:

Instinct, best overall value.

Master Spas Twilight, best therapy value.

Jacuzzi 400 Series, good product but usually higher priced for what you get.

Give me an idea which direction appeals to you more, best value with top build quality, or heavier therapy with the larger jet packages?

Best value with top build quality. I see the Instinct website. How is site prep and installation handled?

Site prep isn't handled, even if we set up a buy from a local dealer they are going to just sub contract the ground prep and electrical out and mark it up :-). Some dealers will package that up but its at a cost... The best bet is hit a couple local landscapers for a basic patio stone base quotes and a couple electricians for quotes on the electrical.

With Instinct spas Its delivered and installed by a dedicated crew. That's key because the problem with curb side deliveries is twofold... They go through regular LTL transport routes and that means on and off of trucks and in and out of multiple warehouses on its journey and that means heavy damage percentages from handling, and worse you have to get it to the final spot and assume liability for damage on that hard to handle last 100 ft.

With Instinct it is shipped through full truckloads direct from Master Spas to the delivery depot then taken by a special hot tub delivery team directly to you and that includes installation into your yard to your final site and liability is on them :-)

Plus with INSTINCT ITS COVERED BY NATIONAL SERVICE CENTERS AND BACKED BY MY PERSONAL BUYERS PORTECTION SERVICE. That's critical because if you have any issues on service instead of a one on one battle with the seller, you hit me up and ill swing my big stick and get them going ;-)

Ill get Bill to reach out with options for pricing on the other units as well...

So Clearwater I wouldn't really recommend any more they used to be a really good tub but they were acquired LPI is the parent now and that just means fancy marketing and reduced fabrication. Verilux Alibaba if the price is super low might be a decent option but you're in the land of cradle supported shells no clamps on the plumbing, Low End insulation packages, cheap steel frames, etc etc

Give me an idea what kind of budget you trying to stay within for which sizes Spa.

Hey James.

The Twilights are solid reliable spas, Master builds good hot tubs and the fact that they are the last of the top 5 that is still privately held, and still making in the US speaks volumes about them.

We beta tested the new salt system and honestly it blew us away, we were skeptical as previous salt systems we tested were unremarkable. In a year of testing with a tub with moderate to heavy usage we had to adjust water chemistry 4 times... that's it... Its 30% lower salt than the next best unit but the real game changer is the on demand aspect, all the other salt systems like you get on a hot Springs or comparable hot tub are dumb timer based systems, so you get yo-yo chemistry but this on tests the water automatically and adjusts sanitizer based on real time levels...

We can arrange a twilight for you through the local sellers, and guarantee you better pricing and better service because we will back it with our buyers protection. simply put if you have issues with a seller we hook you up with don't go one on one with them, hit me up and Ill deal with them :-)

Ill get bill to reach out with numbers.

Thanks and appreciate the quick reply. I meant the 8.25, the 5 slipped off I guess. We found the lounger was a bit uncomfortable and likely better for taller people. Thanks again!

For Airbnb and short term rentals, the game is durability and repairability.

You want a tub built with common, readily available parts that can be overnighted from Amazon or any major supplier. When a hot tub goes down at a rental, it costs you bookings, reviews, and money.

Bullfrog A7 would be a hard pass for this application. Too many proprietary parts, a lower end cradle supported shell design, and you're paying luxury pricing for a tub that simply doesn't justify it from a build quality standpoint. At $14k plus, there are much better places to put your money.

The Aquasolis Cove is another one I'd avoid. It's essentially mass merchant quality. No clamped plumbing, lighter insulation, and not the kind of build I'd want supporting heavy renter use at 6,000 feet in Colorado.

Nordic is actually okay at $6,500. The issue is the 84 inch round design. Round tubs sound great until you use them. Foot room is terrible, seating is cramped, and there is a reason almost nobody builds round tubs anymore. I'd strongly rethink the round layout.

Maple is okay-ish.

American Whirlpool is lower end mass merchant quality. Cheap steel frame, perimeter style insulation, no plumbing clamps. Not where I'd go for a rental property.

Patio Splash is just a rebrand, not a manufacturer. I would stay far away from that route.

For Colorado winters, even in a dry climate, you want a strong shell, full foam insulation, and reliable glued and clamped plumbing. That's what keeps operating costs down and prevents service headaches.

The best fit I see right now is Instinct Spas. Delivered and installed around $8,600 for a 7 foot model. Self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, common service parts, easy to repair, and backed by national service. For a rental property, it's honestly one of the toughest values on the market right now.

Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. If you get written quotes, I can route you through the same sellers, get better pricing, and back it with Buyer Protection.

What size footprint are you working with?

Wow thanks!
Plenty of room in both scenarios 14' + square. We are looking at 5-6 comfy seat count (no loungers).
How does Nordic non-round tubs look to you for an option?

And for our personal use (90% time for 2 adults; no kids) and other times with friends and families (occasional 15-20 days max per year). Any recommendations? Other brands that we can go see to compare with Infinity?

So in this application the instinct is going to come in at 8600 delivered and installed with the premium grade cover. It's hard to touch at that price for a twin pump 40 jet unit with the kind of build quality that unit offers.

Comfortable tubs in that build quality range should be Jacuzzis j345, Master Spas Instinct line, artesians Island series.

If you're going to go to Nordic now you're talking rotationally molded shells personally it's not what I'd recommend for a heavy use rental unit the shells are a lot less expensive and less durable it also has a lower end insulation package. If we decide we're going to go to the rotationally molded shell root check out getaway hot tubs, their rotation molded as well which brings the price down but again all these tubs are going to be purchased through retail outlets and that's going to crack your price back up.

There's only one reason that instinct can sell it the price it does and that's you and me:-) we put out a manufactured challenge about 5 years ago for a manufacturer to offer a solid crazy high-end build without the bells and whistles delivered and installed Factory Direct and that's how Instinct came into play. You see we get 80% of everyone that's buying a hot tub coming to us before they shop normally 30% of the cost of your hot tub is the cost of getting people in front of the unit we got to cut all that shit out and that dropped that tub down from 11 to 12,000 in stores to its current price of 8,600.

It's also back in my Buyer's Protection which is critical for a rental install. Anyone drags your feet or stalls you hit me up I'll push the buttons and make shit happen fast. Nothing can guarantee you a better after sales support network than a big stick LOL

Platinum spas in a Virtual manufacturer they buy hot tubs from China, rebrand them to "Platinum spas" and then sell them... Its the worst scenario, you are buying from a dealer who bought from a middleman, who bought from a manufacturer... They are thinner cradle supported shells cheap steel frames The 304 stainless steel frames are ultra low grade stainless steel, no where near the durability of a 316 marine grade stainless and with chlorine, bromine or salt it will corrode. also low end insulation, what price did you see for which models and what is your budget?

The plastic pans are a mixed bag, and in my opinion they're one of the most overrated upgrades in the industry.

If the tub is installed properly on a concrete pad or patio stone base with good drainage, the tub is already sitting on something far stronger and more durable than any plastic pan. There really isn't much benefit to adding another layer underneath it.

The sales pitch is usually that a plastic pan keeps rodents out and protects the frame. The reality is rodents rarely come through the bottom. They almost always get in through gaps around the skirt and equipment area. A pan doesn't magically solve that problem.

The bigger issue is exactly what your dealer mentioned. If you develop a small leak, water can collect inside the pan and sit there. That can make leak detection harder, and standing water is never your friend around any frame material.

As for the wood frame itself, I actually prefer quality wood framing over steel. Steel sounds great in a showroom, but chlorinated or brominated water is extremely aggressive. Once you get a leak or constant moisture exposure, even galvanized steel eventually corrodes. I've seen chemical exposure chew through galvanized coatings and create problems that people never expected. Wood handles that environment surprisingly well when the tub is built correctly and installed on a proper base.

The only time I'd seriously consider a bottom pan is if you're placing the tub in a poorly drained area where water routinely pools underneath, or in an unusually wet installation where keeping splash and ground moisture away from the bottom is a real concern.

For a normal installation on concrete or patio stone with decent drainage, I would save the money and skip it. That's not a feature that would influence my buying decision.

What model hot tub are you looking at?

I’m putting the hot tub, twilight ts6.2, on a painted composite deck and I don’t know if the wood used in the base would last 20 years. I know they paint the exposed wood but will that last. If the wood does rot, is that something a hot tub tech can replace?

If its a composite deck yer fine, and don't bother with the upgraded base unless its basically the same cost because you wont need it in this scenario, decks drain well and wont accumulate water, the base is already a heavy polycarbonate sheet.

Did you buy the tub already? do you have pricing yet?

We have not bought a tub yet, but we've been to 4 dealers and seen a lot of different models. We are hoping some deals will come soon so we can get one and have enough money to replace the decking boards with composite. Also adding posts under the deck for more support. We gave our old Jacuzzi to my son, his wife, and his kids, as we are downsizing the hot tub for just the two of us.

Which models and what kind of pricing do you have give me an idea where you're at I'll see if we can do better for you through the same sellers.

It's really hard to know exactly what's broken without seeing a photo.

From your description, it sounds like you're talking about the cover lifter brackets that attach to the side of the tub. If those plastic covers popped off, that's usually cosmetic. If the actual mounting screws pulled out or failed, then yes, the lifter generally needs to be fastened back to the cabinet.

If the original screws seem too weak, you can usually move up to a slightly larger diameter screw for a better hold. Just be careful with the length. You do not want a longer screw that could reach plumbing, wiring, or insulation behind the cabinet.

My advice would be to remove the bracket, inspect what's behind that section of skirt, and confirm there's nothing in the way. Then use a similar length screw with a heavier gauge if needed.

As for an easier cover solution, not really. Most cover lifters require mounting hardware attached to the spa. They're still the easiest way to remove and replace a heavy Jacuzzi cover by yourself. Going back to a loose cover without a lifter usually ends up being more work, not less.

Ill get Bill to reach out and see what he can do.

Thank you. I will be looking to hear from Bill.
Jeff

How about I send you an email and help you make sense of it all? No cost to you

Yes please, we would love to get started on it

You don't need a sequestering agent with Spa Marvel and the best course of action is to minimize chemicals to as few as possible so I would pass on it.

Get your alkalinity right first and, if it's a little high, leave it. It will naturally fall over time and pH reducer will reduce it as well. I routinely see mine at around 200 with no issues. What's your level?

For hardness, anything over 150 is fine. You only need to Mae sure the water is not trying to steal calcium from your plumbing components

no worries first what's wrong with the tub?

There is a single dealer that covers the entire western seaboard and they do have service and install teams all up and down the coast. I know that they have at least a couple in the Seattle area. What kind of pricing are they giving you on it?

How about I send you an email? We can make sure you get first class service and the best price

Both are fantastic massage spas and top notch builds but the Legend is more about the flash and fancy. The Twilights are the king of the hill when it comes to muscle massage

Sent you an email

Im not aware of landscapers in the area your seller should be able to help.you.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for reaching out, and I'm glad the reviews helped.

If Master Spas is your benchmark, the two brands I'd look at first locally would be Jacuzzi and Artesian. Neither is an exact match, but they're probably the closest in overall build quality and ownership experience. Jacuzzi would be my first alternative, Artesian would be second. The right answer really depends on the specific models because jet packages can vary a lot, and that's where a lot of the real value is.

One thing I'd challenge is the idea that a local dealer automatically means better service or a better ownership experience.

That's largely a myth in today's market.

A lot of buyers assume a dealer 20 minutes away guarantees fast service, but there are plenty of local dealers that are difficult to work with after the sale. Likewise, having a dealer nearby doesn't necessarily get you better pricing. In many cases, it does the opposite because you're paying for the overhead of multiple storefronts, sales staff, and regional dealer networks.

Master took a different approach years ago.

The Pennsylvania dealer you're referring to handles a huge portion of the East Coast and does roughly 20 to 30 times the volume of a typical hot tub dealer. Instead of building a dense dealer network, Master invested heavily in delivery, installation, and service infrastructure. They recognized early that most buyers research and purchase remotely, and that maintaining large dealer networks adds cost that ultimately gets passed on to customers.

The result is that I can typically arrange delivery, installation, and service support in areas that don't have a nearby Master showroom. The physical dealership may be 3.5 hours away, but the people delivering, installing, and servicing the spa are generally local to your area.

The other thing I'd consider is how you protect yourself after the sale.

The best predictor of a good ownership experience isn't dealer distance, it's accountability.

That's where my Buyer Protection program comes in. If I help arrange the purchase, the dealer knows you're one of my clients. They also know that if something isn't handled properly, you're going to call me, and then I'm going to get involved. After 15 years in this industry, dealers generally understand that's a conversation they'd rather avoid.

So if you're considering Jacuzzi, Artesian, Master, or anything else in your area, send me the exact model numbers and any written quotes you receive. I'll break down the build quality, compare the jet packages, tell you where the real value is, and help make sure you're getting the right tub at the right number.

What brands and models are available closest to you?

Aquasolus is a Chinese rebrand by a company out of the UK Called Superior wellness... This is the worst scenario, cheap tub you can buy on Alibaba for $3k then some asshat imports them creates new names and marketing, then redistributes them too importers who then redistribute them to Us sellers... It is not even a real manufacturer...

what is the budget for this project?

Looking for a 6 or 7 seater (no lounger) and would like to keep the project under $15K

Hi Allan,

Good question.

The Instinct uses a top load 50 sq ft filter, so access is simple and you don't have to dig around inside the cabinet to service it.

On the motors, don't let anyone confuse quality with size. The pumps in the Instinct are the same level of quality you'd expect in this category. The difference is that the Twilight is a crazy high-end end therapy spa. It runs larger pumps and more big high flow therapy jets, which is why it delivers a stronger massage and costs more.

The better comparison for the Instinct is tubs like the Jacuzzi J345, Master Spas Clarity Series, Bullfrog X Series, or Artesian Island Series. Those models typically retail in the $11,000 to $13,000 range through traditional dealers.

The Twilight sits a level above that. You're generally looking at roughly $13,000 to $15,000 because you're paying for a substantially larger therapy package, not because the pumps are somehow better quality.

If you're after the best value, the Instinct is tough to beat. If your main goal is deep therapy and muscle relief, that's where the Twilight earns the extra money.

Are you looking for maximum therapy, or the best value for the money?

And I can get you great pricing on any of these tubs if you want I'll get Bill to reach out to you with quotes and offers let you know what's going on in your local market.

Hi Arend,

If that 2023 Twilight 7.2 is truly in excellent condition, running properly, and you can see it full of water with everything working, then $7,500 is about exactly what I would expect it to be worth.

Personally, I would not spend an extra $9,000 just to get a warranty.

People tend to overvalue hot tub warranties. When you break down the actual value, you're talking maybe a couple hundred dollars a year in expected benefit. The reality is most owners never make a major warranty claim.

You're also comparing it the right way.

A used Toyota with a strong reputation is often a safer buy than a brand new vehicle from a manufacturer with a weaker track record. I look at Master Spas much the same way. They are one of the better built tubs on the market today. Self supported shell, full foam insulation, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, common industry parts. The fundamentals are all there.

The other thing I like is that Master uses widely available components. Pumps, heaters, controls, jets and plumbing parts are easy to source and competitively priced. You're not getting trapped into proprietary parts that only one dealer can supply.

That doesn't mean you skip due diligence.

I'd want to see it filled, heated, circulating, and running through every pump speed and jet zone before handing over money. I'd also budget for a professional mover. A bad move causes more hot tub damage than normal ownership ever will.

If the tub checks out, I'd be very comfortable buying that 2023 at $7,500 rather than spending $16,500 on a new one.

That said, if you do decide you'd rather compare new pricing, we can usually do better than $16,500 through the same sellers. I can have Bill reach out and get you proper pricing on a new Twilight 7.2 so you can compare apples to apples before making the decision let me know if you wanna dig deeper into new tub pricing.

Quick question, have you seen the used tub running and heated in person yet?

For sure I will have bill reach out to you he can get you to the right number.

if its a small area you can use a can of standard spray foam, or you can pack lightly with fiberglass pink.

Hi Michelle,

You're not alone. This is an extremely confusing industry right now.

The biggest problem is that private equity firms have bought up a huge chunk of the hot tub market. In many cases, one parent company owns eight or nine different brands. You walk into different showrooms thinking you're comparison shopping, but often you're really shopping against the same company with different marketing, different sales pitches, and slightly different cosmetics.

It's a bit of a mess.

The other challenge is that a lot of tubs look great on a showroom floor, but the build quality underneath can be completely different. There is a lot of low end construction out there right now, cradle supported shells, lighter insulation systems, plumbing without clamps, and proprietary parts that can become expensive headaches later.

For therapy and massage, the biggest thing to understand is that large high flow therapy jets cost real money to build. A lot of tubs use dozens of smaller jets that feel impressive during a quick wet test, but they don't move as much muscle tissue over the long term. That's one reason you see such large price differences between models.

The good news is there are still some very good options depending on your budget.

If you're looking for the best value, I'd be looking at something like the Instinct line.

If therapy and massage are your top priority, then I'd be looking at the Master Spas Twilight Series because it carries substantially larger therapy jets and pump packages.

Before I point you toward specific models, I need a little more information.

What's your budget range, and are you looking for a lounger or an open seating layout?

Yes $9500 a good price for a 2025 LH 7 demo floor model hot tub. Sundance comparable model would be a Peyton. But make sure it still has the full foam package and the wood frame, They are made in Mexico since they got acquired by and equity firm and the now carry big shipping and tariff hits right now and we have seen them cutting corners on production of some models to offset the costs :-(

But even better would be the Instinct Vital Model, its a master as well and built to the same spec but it beats both those on price and jet packages, it has a more of the expensive high flow jets and a great neck and shoulder reverse molded quad 3.5" mid flows... and because we stripped all the dealer markups and marketing and floor space you can get it new for $8600 delivered and installed and serviced by Atlas, you have to buy it online through the factory site and Atlas will still get the profit from the deal but you cant order it through the store its exclusive for our customers. and its covered by my buyers protection so if you had any unresolved issues we will deal with the seller for you :-)

https://instinctspas.com/products/vital-instinct

You have service there for any brand with a standard build, the only brands you need dealers for are the ones that intentionally make parts wierd so they can lock them into their eco system and make bank off you for repairs :-)

Jacuzzi and Nordic are solid choices, do you have pricing on models yet?

No we aren’t that far along in the decision process, haven’t even visited a store yet. It looks like it maybe a late summer or fall project. Especially appreciate the Costco review it was nice to see our suspicions about build quality were confirmed. Keep up the good work &Thanks

No worries, if you want I will drop you into our new beta Private buyers service, Bill can reach out and negotiate better pricing through the local sellers and definitely get you better pricing.

yeah touch up the doles with rostellum or nail polish... best bet for fit is lay it out on the cover then measure to fit

Measure twice, then twice more. Ended up needing to cut both poles to make it fit. Now installed. And thank you for reply, and for buyer service: negotiation tools provided got me $1,000 off asking, and free chems, cover, lifter.

Marquis used to be one of the better independent brands out there, so you're not imagining things.

They were acquired by Monomoy Capital, and since then a few things have changed that I don't love. The big one is plumbing. They moved away from traditional glued and mechanically clamped plumbing connections and now lean on the SureGrip system. The industry pitch is that it's just as good. I don't buy it. In marine, industrial, and commercial applications, mechanical clamping remains the gold standard because it works long term.

They also consolidated production into the Artesian facility after closing the West Coast operation. None of that automatically makes Marquis a bad brand, but it does mean they're not the same company they were five or ten years ago.

As for the Broadway Elite specifically, it's actually one of the better tubs in their lineup. The jet package is decent and it has a fair number of larger, higher flow therapy jets, which matter a lot more than a bunch of tiny spinner jets. That's the good news.

The weak spots are the neck and foot therapy. The neck system is basically a couple of small jets, nothing I'd consider a serious neck massage package. The footwell also isn't a standout. If deep therapy is the goal, there are stronger options.

The bigger issue is value. Like most private equity acquisitions, prices went up. That's become a pattern across the industry. Marquis isn't a nightmare brand today, but at the prices I'm seeing, they're often competing against tubs that have equal or better build standards for similar money.

If the Broadway Elite is priced right, I'd still consider it. If it's pushing into premium territory, I'd start comparing it against Master, Jacuzzi, and a few carefully selected Artesian models before signing anything.

Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. Send me the exact written quote and I'll tell you if it's competitive. If it's not, I can usually tighten the number up or point you at a better value option. We don't sell tubs. We introduce you to the same sellers, get better pricing, and back it with HTU Buyer Protection. If a dealer starts playing games after the sale, you've got someone in your corner instead of fighting them alone.

What price did they put in writing on the Broadway Elite?

Yeah so those guys have been selling in Salt Lake for a lot of years and they just recently opened the location there they used to service it remotely and even then they had good service levels so this is definitely not a bad thing. The prices are pretty good but we can do a little bit better we have some discount codes we can apply for our customers through that same seller. In the big pluses we're going to cover you with Buyer's Protection let me if you ever do have an issue you're not one-on-one with a dealer you call us we'll quietly push the right buttons in the background and make things move fast. It's the gold standard for hot tub service nobody wants in the wrong side of the guy that helps 30 million in hot tub purchases flow through the market.

I'll have Bill reach out to you with some options.

Dave, New Richmond, Wisconsin gets real winter, so insulation matters.

Cal Spas is okay if the price is right, but it is not my first pick around 10k. You are looking at a tier two build, lighter shell support, lighter insulation, and more showroom pitch than real winter ownership value.

For Wisconsin, I want full foam, a self supported shell, clamped plumbing, and standard parts. That keeps heat costs down and keeps service simple. Around that 10k mark, the standout is Instinct.

That tub used to sit in stores around 11k to 12k. We stripped out the dealer markup, brochures, sales commissions, and marketing junk, and brought it factory direct to about 8600 delivered and installed. Cover included, national service included.

It is built to our spec, full foam, better shell, proper plumbing, standard parts, no options circus. That is how you keep winter running costs under control.

On energy cost, nobody can give you an honest exact number because it depends on wind exposure, usage, cover quality, water temp, and electric rate. But in that climate, a well built full foam tub is usually the difference between normal winter cost and getting punched every month by a cheap insulation package.

We also back it with Buyer Protection. You do not go one on one with a dealer if something drags. You text us, we push buttons in the background, and sellers do not like being on the wrong side of us.

I’ll have Bill reach out with a couple options that fit the 7 seat, 10k range.

Do you want open seating only, or is a lounger okay?

Open seating

Mitchell,

Yeah, $15k on an American Whirlpool 461 feels high.

American Whirlpool is middle of the road. Not junk, but not a $15k no brainer either. The shell is decent and the jet package is okay, but the neck and shoulder jets are mostly small low flow jets, and there is no serious foot therapy in that layout.

The bigger issue is the build package.

They use perimeter insulation, which is cheaper and lower value than full foam. That is the same kind of insulation pitch you see in price point tubs.

They also use a steel frame. Steel is not there because it is better, it is there because it is cheaper and easier in production. A good wood frame is more than strong enough, quieter, and gives better insulation value.

And the plumbing is not clamped. That matters. In marine, industrial, and any high vibration water system, you clamp plumbing because it works. Glued and clamped lines are the gold standard.

So yes, I think you can do better.

Get on my private buyer service. I can almost certainly find you that tub for less, probably through the same seller, and we can also look at better built options in your area. You have good service coverage where you are, so you do not need to be trapped by one dealer as long as the tub uses standard parts and a sensible build.

I’ll have Bill reach out to your Yahoo email with options.

Do you want best value, or stronger therapy?Mitchell,

Yeah, $15k on an American Whirlpool 461 feels high.

American Whirlpool is middle of the road. Not junk, but not a $15k no brainer either. The shell is decent and the jet package is okay, but the neck and shoulder jets are mostly small low flow jets, and there is no serious foot therapy in that layout.

The bigger issue is the build package.

They use perimeter insulation, which is cheaper and lower value than full foam. That is the same kind of insulation pitch you see in price point tubs.

They also use a steel frame. Steel is not there because it is better, it is there because it is cheaper and easier in production. A good wood frame is more than strong enough, quieter, and gives better insulation value.

And the plumbing is not clamped. That matters. In marine, industrial, and any high vibration water system, you clamp plumbing because it works. Glued and clamped lines are the gold standard.

So yes, I think you can do better.

Get on my private buyer service. I can almost certainly find you that tub for less, probably through the same seller, and we can also look at better built options in your area. You have good service coverage where you are, so you do not need to be trapped by one dealer as long as the tub uses standard parts and a sensible build.

I’ll have Bill reach out to your Yahoo email with options.

Do you want best value, or stronger therapy?

Kevin,

A Twilight is a strong move from a cedar tub. You get a self supported shell, full foam insulation, glued and clamped plumbing, and a therapy package that actually moves muscle. That's why it sits near the top of our list.

On rodents, a lot comes down to assembly quality and how well the cabinet fits together. If there are gaps around the skirt, mice will find them.

Master does a good job here. The skirts fit tightly, there are fewer access points, and the overall assembly is cleaner than a lot of competitors. That doesn't make them rodent proof, but it does make them a tougher target.

You still want:

A clean crushed stone perimeter around the pad, not mulch.

No stored firewood, bird seed, or brush piles nearby.

Vegetation trimmed back from the spa area.

For the pad, my preference is:

1. Reinforced concrete slab, best overall.

2. Properly compacted crusher run with quality pavers.

What I do not like is dropping a premium spa onto soft gravel, uncompacted stone, or a deck that hasn't been checked for load.

Since you're in Rhode Island, freeze protection and a level base matter. A 4 inch reinforced concrete pad is usually the cleanest long term solution.

And yes, we can absolutely help with pricing. Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. We don't sell tubs. We introduce you to the same sellers, get better numbers, and back it with Buyer Protection. If anyone drags their feet, you text me and I sort it.

Which Twilight model are you considering, 7.2, 7.25, 8.25, or something else?

I am considering either a twilight 7.2 or a legend lsx700 as my wife is interested in the hydrotherapy benefits I have read about in the marketing materials. Open for discussion for sure.

Yeah we can definitely help you get better pricing through the same local Sellers and we can cover you with our buyers Protection Service. It's the gold standard in hot tub service right now you ever have a problem with a seller that we put you through you reach out to us instead of having a one-on-one battle and we'll apply pressure in the right places nobody wants in the bad side of this much traffic lol

I'll get Bill to reach out with some options.

Michael,

Long Island gives you cold winters, so build quality matters. The stuff you can't see in a showroom is what determines whether you're happy ten years from now.

The big things I look for are a self supported shell, full foam insulation, glued and clamped plumbing, quality OEM parts, and a manufacturer that isn't cutting corners to hit a marketing price point.

For a six person tub, my top recommendations would be Master Spas, Jacuzzi, and Artesian.

Master is usually my favorite because it's US built, privately held, full foam, and has some of the best therapy in the industry. Jacuzzi is also a solid choice, but you're paying a premium for the brand and marketing. Artesian still builds a decent spa, although I think they're getting harder to justify at current pricing.

Before you buy anything, get on my private Buyer Service. It's $99, but it typically saves people far more than that, usually around $500 and often more.

The bigger value is the Buyer Protection. If you ever have an issue with a seller, you don't have to fight that battle yourself. You bring me into the conversation and I'll deal with them directly. We have a 100% success rate and have never had a Buyer Protection complaint.

We don't sell hot tubs. We connect you with the right sellers, help make sure you're getting a fair deal, review quotes, compare models, and make sure you're covered after the sale. We can also jump on calls, emails, or texts and walk through everything with you before you make a decision.

A little guidance up front can save you thousands and help you avoid ending up with the wrong tub.

What's your target budget?

10,000-12,000 dollars

Hey Michael that's a tricky price point there's a lot of junk at that end of the market but there's also some gems. I'm going to get Bill to reach out to you with some options he can put you through the local sellers at the right price and then guarantee you a high service level with our buyers protection.

Hi James, this might be a typo? I cant find anything on Blainville spas... never heard of them and searching s620 gave no firm results

Jacuzzi 300 series is a solid option although being made in Mexico with the Tariff hit and their corporate ownership model makes them a little pricey they're definitely a step ahead of that Chevy stuff if you want to stay Canadian Beachcomber is also a great option if you want I can get Bill to have a look at your local market and see what he can find what kind of budget expectations do you have?

Maple spas is Solid middle of the road if the price is right they can be a decent purchase what model you're looking at and what kind of pricing do you have?

Cheryl,

I've been to New Haven and Neil's Harbour a few times. Beautiful part of the world.

The first thing I'd say is this: where you live, local service is almost irrelevant. Nobody has a tech sitting around every corner in Northern Cape Breton. What matters is buying something that's easy to repair, uses common parts, and can get components shipped to your door quickly when you need them.

Between those three, none of them would be at the top of my list.

The Hydropool 728 Platinum is the easiest one for me to rule out. Hydropool sits lower in the Jacuzzi family lineup. The shell construction is lighter, the insulation strategy is weaker, and a lot of the price goes into marketing rather than build quality. You're paying a premium for a badge, not getting premium construction.

The Maple M750 is probably the better tub of the three from a build standpoint, but it's still not something I'd get excited about. It's decent, nothing special, and it would come down entirely to price.

The Be Well E770 falls into a similar category for me. Not terrible, not outstanding. Again, the question is whether you're getting enough value for the money.

For your location, I'd be focusing on full foam insulation, common Balboa or Gecko components, straightforward plumbing, and something that any competent technician can work on. That's worth a lot more than a fancy showroom pitch when you're hours away from major service centers.

Before I tell you which way I'd lean, I need to know the numbers.

What are the actual written prices you're seeing on the Maple M750, Be Well E770, and Hydropool 728 Platinum? Keep your name out of dealer databases for now, send me the quotes and I'll tell you if any of them are worth pursuing or if I can point you toward a better tub for the same money and cover you with Buyer Protection.

What prices did they give you?

Thanks for your response. So has you’ve been to my area.
Hydropool. 28,500 tax in
Maple 16,000 tax in
Be Well 22,000 without taxes.
I love the Maple’s price but the self-cleaning feature of the Hydropool has me hooked.
Hardest decision.
While in Halifax, we looked at an Arctic Spa, but for around 32,00 or more we thought that was a lot. Love the Spa Boy feature and that it’s salt water.
I see you love Master Spas. Can you suggest somewhere better for where I live?

I want to add, that we are getting the hot tub mostly for therapeutic use as I have neck and shoulder issues while my husband has all over body issues.

Cheryl,

For therapy, Hydropool would be off my list.

The self cleaning pitch is old tech dressed up as innovation. Most tubs move floor debris around. Hydropool just markets it harder.

The bigger issue is how they do it. That system relies on pressure side filtration, which means debris goes through the pumps and equipment before it gets filtered. Modern suction side filtration catches debris before it runs through the expensive stuff.

So no, I would not pay $28,500 tax in for that. Hydropool is the lower cousin inside the Jacuzzi group. If you were spending that kind of money with that family of brands, I’d rather see you in a Jacuzzi.

Maple at $16,000 tax in is the best value of those three, but it is not a real heavy therapy tub.

Be Well at $22,000 plus tax makes no sense to me.

For neck, shoulders, and full body therapy, stop looking at brochures and look at the jets. Big high flow therapy jets are expensive, usually $80 to $100 each, and they move muscle. The little low flow jets are cheap, usually $10 to $20, and they feel busy but do not do much long term.

That is why the Master Spas Twilight line costs more. It has one of the strongest therapy jet packages on the market, self supported shell, full foam, clamped plumbing, compression fittings, and common parts. That is the kind of build I’d want in Northern Cape Breton.

We can likely route you through the Halifax distributor with our private buyer service and see what a Twilight lands for delivered into your area. Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. We don’t sell tubs, we get you to the right seller, push for better pricing, and cover you with Buyer Protection.

The halifax Dealer regularly deliveres Twilight into Cape Breton through my buyer's service we negotiated a price delivered and Installed at under $20k.

Ill get bill to hit you up with detailed prices on email.

Typically a tub depreciates by 30% the first year in 10% each year after. So in good condition this tubs with about $6,600

The main thing is to look at are pump seals look for white deposit between where the shaft goes into the back of the pump head from the motor and look at the heater terminal see if there's any corrosion or any white buildup other than that just give it a once over take the sides off check for wet foam or any indication of leaking. I can get you new ones very good prices as well through the same local sellers we get a really good prices on any brand.

Ok, here is our new dilemma. After reading all of your reviews and advice, we have decided to go new rather than used. With that said, it's down to the Master Spas Twilight 8 ft, or the Jacuzzi 300 series 8 ft. We love the aesthetics of the Jacuzzi as well as the comfort of the lounger seat & cooling seat options. It has all the features we are looking for. However, our main purpose for the spa is good hydrotherapy, and from what we've read on your site, the Twilight seems to top the list. We are ready to purchase one or the other this week. We are looking for advice to help us tip the scale one direction or the other. Thank you

Hi Heather,

First, I think you've narrowed it down to two very good brands. Jacuzzi and Master are both in my top tier. You're not choosing between a good tub and a bad tub here.

That said, if hydrotherapy is the primary goal, I'd lean Twilight and it's honestly not that close.

The thing to understand is that Jacuzzi and Master are built more similarly than most people realize. Both are quality manufacturers. The difference is that Jacuzzi is built in Mexico and sits under corporate ownership, so you're dealing with the double hit of shipping costs, tariffs, and corporate overhead. Master is built in the US and remains privately owned, which gives them a better value equation.

When people compare a Jacuzzi 300 Series to a Twilight, they're actually comparing tubs from different performance categories.

A Jacuzzi J345 is much closer to a Master Clarity Series, Instinct Spa, Bullfrog X Series, or Artesian Island Series. Those are the tubs I would normally put in the same bucket.

The Twilight sits above that group because of the therapy package.

When you're evaluating therapy, don't count jets. Look at jet size.

The big high flow therapy jets are expensive. Many of them cost $80 to $100 each. Smaller jets might only cost $20 to $30 each. That's where a huge amount of the price difference comes from, and it's also where the massage performance comes from.

The Twilight carries a dramatically more expensive jet package than the Jacuzzi 300 Series. In fact, the Twilight's therapy package is stronger than even the Jacuzzi 400 Series in my opinion. It simply moves more muscle mass and delivers a deeper massage experience.

Also, don't put too much weight on dry testing comfort.

When you're sitting in an empty tub, you're evaluating furniture.

When the tub is full, you're floating. You effectively weigh almost nothing in the seat. All those contours, cooling seats, and lounger impressions that feel important in the showroom become much less important once you're actually in the water.

If aesthetics and showroom comfort are driving the decision, I can understand the attraction of the Jacuzzi.

If hydrotherapy is the main objective, I'd buy the Twilight.

One other thing. Before you sign anything, do you have written pricing on both models? We can usually get better numbers through the exact same sellers, and it comes with our Buyer Protection service. If anything goes sideways after the sale, you have us in your corner instead of fighting a dealer one on one.

What are the written prices on the Jacuzzi and the Twilight?

We can help you out. Just sent you an email

Congrats. The LSX 800 with Master Clear is about as good as it gets right now for a salt setup.

Looking at your source water, I would absolutely fill straight from the tap. No pre filter needed.

Here's why.

pH 7.85, a little high, but normal. You'll lower it during startup.

TA 164, definitely high. This is the number you'll spend the most time adjusting. I'd target 60 to 80 ppm for a salt tub.

Calcium 53 ppm is low, but your reported total hardness of 192 ppm is actually right in the sweet spot. I would verify with your own test kit before adding calcium. Don't blindly chase numbers from the municipal report.

TDS 329 ppm is very low and perfectly fine.

Chloramine 2.44 ppm is common city water. Once you get the tub heated, balanced, and the salt system running, it won't be an issue.

For pre filters, I generally don't see enough benefit for your water profile to justify the hassle or cost. If you were on well water with iron, manganese, sulfur, or extremely hard water, different story.

For test kits, buy the Taylor K 2006C.

Not the standard K 2006.

The "C" version simply gives you larger reagent bottles so you're not replacing them every few months.

That's the gold standard kit for chlorine spas.

You'll get: Free chlorine Combined chlorine pH TA CH CYA

Everything you actually need.

On enzymes, yes, I'm a fan.

The biggest benefit isn't reducing chlorine demand directly. It's reducing the amount of oils, lotions, sweat, and organics that the chlorine has to deal with.

That means: Cleaner water Less scum line Lower sanitizer demand Less shocking

For a Master Clear system running around 1 ppm free chlorine, enzymes make even more sense.

A lot of owners use Spa Marvel with good results. We've tested about 10 different enzyme sanitizers and Spa Marvel was Far and Away the best. HIt up Guen at [email protected] tub and she can get you set up with it. Or buy it here: https://hottubuniversity.myshopify.com/

The startup order I'd follow:

1. Fill the tub.

2. Heat the water.

3. Test and lower TA first.

4. Once TA is where you want it, adjust pH.

5. Verify calcium hardness before adding anything.

6. Add the Master Clear salt according to the startup instructions.

7. Install and activate the Smart Cell.

8. Let the system establish sanitizer production.

9. Confirm free chlorine with the Taylor kit before heavy use.

One thing I'd ignore is Master's published pH target of 7.0 to 7.2. That's lower than I like to run.

I generally prefer 7.4 to 7.6 once everything stabilizes. It's easier on equipment and feels better for most people.

Also remember that Master's salt system is not like most salt systems. Most salt is dumb timer chlorine, higher salt, yo yo chemistry. Master's is on demand, about 30 percent lower salt, holds roughly 1 ppm steady. That's why it works.

Great info, thanks. I went ahead and ordered a year supply of Spa Marvel. With my startup kit, my local dealer gave me:

-Metal Protect 16 oz. and recommended adding that full bottle to the fill. The bottle does not have a chemical content list, but says it will help prevent discoloration and surface staining from oxidized iron and other metals. Should I still add this full bottle if I am also using Spa Marvel?
-pH Increaser (95% Sodium Bicarbonate)
-pH Reducer (96% Sodium Bisulfate)
-Oxidizer (42.8% Potasasium Peroxymonosulfate and 57.2% inert ingredients)
-Hose filter (X268570 MS-SPA-FILL6)

The tech that delivered and set up the tub recommended using the hose pre-filter. I mentioned that I had been advised online here that it wasn't necessary based on the #s I got off the city water report. He said to probably go with that then and that we wasn't too sure himself for in-city, but I guess they just must recommend to everyone they deliver tubs to to pre-filter? He lives in a smaller suburb on well water so knew he would need to use it himself, but was not sure for me.

I know I will need to do some testing of my personal hose water for what exactly I will need to do, but assuming my numbers are close to what I quoted above... first, what should I use to lower TA? Can I just use the Sodium Bisulfate they sent, or will that also lower my pH too far? I know I have read using Baking Soda to increase your TA, but I'm not sure about lowering it if it starts off pretty high (around that 164 I listed).

I've read elsewhere that Calcium Hardness of 130-150 is good. Is that not as necessary if my total hardness is already at 192?

I'm concerned that I might need a few more specific chemicals before diving in, possibly?

Thanks

Looks like you have everything you need and hardness at 192 is absolutely fine

Thanks mike I appreciate it :-)

If you ever need anything hit us up :-) happy hot tubbing :-)

Beth,

You’re actually running into a pretty good filter here.

The reason you’re having trouble finding a quality double lounger is that the better manufacturers generally don’t build them.

Most of the market today is driven by repeat buyers, and repeat buyers rarely choose double loungers. First time buyers often love the idea because when you sit in one dry, it feels comfortable and supportive.

The problem starts when you add water.

People float. That means loungers take up a lot of space, can be difficult to stay seated in, and often end up being the least used seat in the tub. After owning a spa for a few years, many buyers decide they'd rather have more open seating and better therapy positions.

That's why you mostly see double loungers coming from smaller manufacturers using older shell designs. They can be built inexpensively, but they're generally not what you'll find from the stronger brands at the higher end of the market.

Before you chase a double lounger, I'd ask one question:

Have you owned a hot tub before, and do you already know that you both genuinely enjoy lounge seats in the water?

That answer usually determines whether a double lounger is a must have or something that sounds better in the showroom than it works in real life.

Have you had a hot tub before?

Yes, we have had a tub in past and loved the lounger.

Yer one the 15% that do :)

Probably wellis is the best 2 lounger tub

I really wouldn't put my money into a ThermoSpa this is a really low end product if you're trying to stay in that 4 or 5K range I would look at used units before I would spend my money on something built like this. The problem is it's impossible to build a good quality shell with Reliable Plumbing and good parts and good insulation and good framing materials and sell it at 5K.

Would you like me to have a look around your area and see if there's any good used units?

Yeah that would be great I'm in the Hartford Connecticut area

https://www.facebook.com/share/18uyRMJKSo/ this is a god tub and a good deal.

https://www.facebook.com/share/17kvyRC1H4/ again good tub good price

Yep good deal its worth around $6500-$7k if working in good condition with the cover

Michael, Michigan winters change the answer fast.

You want full foam, open cell insulation. That is still the gold standard. Don’t buy the story that a thin perimeter blanket magically beats a fully foamed cabinet. It doesn’t.

For low chemical smell, most systems are just dumb timer salt systems. Higher salt, sanitizer swings up and down, more corrosion risk.

The one system I’m actually excited about right now is Master’s on demand salt system. It tests and doses as needed, runs about 30 percent lower salt, and holds around 1 ppm steady. That is why it feels cleaner and smells way less chemical.

Brand wise, I’d be looking at Master first, then Instinct if you want the best value, then Jacuzzi or Artesian depending on the exact model and price. Master is the cleanest fit for your two concerns, insulation and water care.

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. Send me your budget range and I can narrow this down hard.

What are you trying to stay under, 10k, 12k, or 15k?

Thanks for your quick reply and I'm trying to stay around $15,000. I have read about the Jacuzzi True Water system and I was wondering how the J-325 model would compare to a Master Spa. Per the Jacuzzi website, it looks like I can add the True Water system to this model. There's a local store that is advertising the J-325 model for $12,368 without the True Water system.

Lots of good 6 person tubs in Palm Springs.

Service should not be the problem there. Most major brands can cover 92262.

Cost is the spread. Instinct starts around $8,500 delivered and installed, strong value, solid build, good jet package. Master Clarity is usually the next step. If you want heavier therapy jets, Twilight is where the big high flow jets start moving real muscle, usually more like the low to mid teens. You can spend $18k to $20k easy, but you don’t always get better build.

I’d look at Instinct first for value, Master Clarity for better seating and features, Twilight if strong jets are the priority. Self supported shell, full foam, clamped plumbing, compression fittings, and common Balboa, CMP, Waterway parts are the stuff that matters.

What budget range are you trying to stay inside?

Hi,

The first thing to understand is that buying a hot tub is surprisingly difficult because almost all the information buyers get is marketing.

You see waterfalls, lights, speakers, touchscreens, fancy jet names, and sales pitches.

What you rarely get is information about the stuff that actually determines whether the tub is still running properly 15 years from now.

The expensive parts of a hot tub are the bones.

A self supported shell.

Glued and clamped plumbing.

Compression fit jet bodies.

Full foam insulation.

A heavy timber frame.

Those are the things that cost real money to build and they're the things that matter most over the long haul.

Everything else is mostly marketing.

Steel frames, perimeter insulation systems, unclamped plumbing, cradle supported shells, there are always sales pitches explaining why they're "better", but in reality they're usually cost reduction measures dressed up as innovation.

We've been saying the same thing for over 15 years because the fundamentals haven't changed.

If a manufacturer isn't doing those core things well, you're paying for fluff.

On the brands you're looking at, I would personally remove Vita and Aspen from the list.

Neither is built to what I consider a premium standard.

Vita's higher end models use a decent shell, but they're still using construction methods that don't compete with the best builders. The 300 Series in particular relies on thinner cradle supported shell designs, steel framing, lower grade insulation strategies, and unclamped plumbing.

Aspen isn't a brand I would spend my money on either.

Hot Spring is a different conversation.

Hot Spring builds a decent hot tub.

I don't put them in the "bad tub" category at all.

The problem is value.

They're now built in Mexico, owned by a large corporate group, and carry all the costs that come with that structure.

Tariffs.

Transportation.

Corporate overhead.

Marketing costs.

Dealer network costs.

On top of that, they rely heavily on proprietary components and a dealer centric service model.

That means you're often locked into your dealer for parts and repairs.

A lot of people don't realize that many of the components inside these tubs are based on common industry technology, but the connectors and systems have been modified so you're pushed back into the manufacturer's ecosystem.

That's great for corporate profits.

It's not great for owners.

The bigger issue across the industry is ownership.

Private equity groups and large corporations have bought a huge percentage of the hot tub market over the last decade.

Prices have gone up.

Build quality has often gone down.

Marketing budgets have exploded.

That's not a coincidence.

Master is one of the reasons I talk so much about ownership.

They're still privately held.

They're one of the last major manufacturers where the people running the company are hot tub people instead of corporate accountants.

That matters.

As for dealers, this is another area where the industry hasn't really caught up with reality.

Many buyers still think the local dealer is the most important part of the purchase.

On proprietary brands like Hot Spring and Jacuzzi, that's partly true because the manufacturers intentionally keep you tied into their service network.

But the dealer model itself is fading fast.

Today, national service networks matter more than local showrooms.

Master and Instinct both have service coverage throughout your area. I checked Tomahawk and there is coverage available, so service would not be a concern.

The bigger advantage is that you're avoiding a lot of the dealer markup that often adds thousands to the purchase price.

For your actual use case, relaxation, a lounger, room for family visits, and not necessarily intensive therapy, I would lean toward an Instinct model before I would buy a Vita.

You get better fundamentals.

Better long term value.

Better serviceability.

And a build philosophy that focuses on the stuff that matters.

As for therapy, don't overcomplicate it.

The sales presentations around pumps, horsepower, proprietary jet names, and miracle massage systems are mostly noise.

Big high flow jets move muscle mass.

Small jets don't.

That's really the secret.

The reason tubs like the Master Twilight series cost more is because they contain more of the expensive large therapy jets.

If relaxation is the goal, you don't necessarily need to chase that.

If therapy is the goal, then jet count means very little and jet size means everything.

On sanitation, I would completely ignore the peroxide recommendation.

That's old technology and not something I recommend.

A hot tub needs a halogen sanitizer.

That means chlorine or bromine.

Then you can reduce chemical usage with enzymes, minerals, or a modern on demand salt system.

The newer on demand salt systems are the best option available today because they're automated and maintain sanitizer levels consistently with less chemical handling.

That said, if you don't want salt, that's perfectly fine.

A simple bromine or chlorine program paired with enzymes works very well and is still what many owners use successfully.

One last thing.

Absolutely get on my Private Buyer Service before you buy anything.

I don't care whether you end up with Master, Instinct, Jacuzzi, Vita, or something else.

I'll help evaluate the quotes, negotiate pricing, and make sure you're getting a fair deal.

If I can't save you money, I'll refund the fee.

More importantly, you get Buyer Protection.

If a seller isn't delivering the level of service they promised, you don't have to fight that battle by yourself. You come to me and I bring the leverage of millions of dollars in annual purchasing power to the conversation.

That changes how quickly problems get solved.

Here's the link:

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Send me the Vita model numbers and quotes you're considering and I'll tell you exactly how they stack up.

Lydell,

The old Vanguard was not a bad tub. Twenty five years is proof of that. But your complaints are the exact weak spots of Hot Spring.

The Moto Massage is a gimmick. It breaks, performance fades, and it never really hits hard. The rest of the jetting is mostly small low flow jets, which feel busy but do not move much muscle mass. That is why the massage has always felt underwhelming.

The newer Hot Spring stuff is also a lot more expensive than it should be now. Mexico build, tariff hit, corporate ownership, heavy marketing layer, plus proprietary parts. Good tubs, but expensive to buy and expensive to keep in the field long term. Very dealer dependent too.

For your use case, no lounger, open seating, strong therapy, cold winters, and a couple using it daily, I would be looking hard at Master Spas Twilight or Artesian Elite.

Twilight is probably the closest match to what you actually want long term. Big high flow therapy jets, open seating layouts, full foam, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, Balboa systems, easy parts support. The therapy is not even in the same league as the Vanguard because it uses more of the expensive large jets that actually move muscle.

On seat depth, there is not really a magic layout here. Nobody under about 5 foot is going to fit perfectly in the main captain’s chair of a serious therapy tub. If they did, everybody taller would be sitting half out of the water. The real fix is a good weighted booster cushion. It keeps you planted, raises you into the jet zone properly, and works way better than chasing some weird shallow seating layout that usually compromises the rest of the tub.

Artesian Elite is also worth a look. Still a decent therapy tub overall. My issue is they slipped after the equity buyout and stopped clamping plumbing, so at current pricing I usually lean Master first unless the Artesian quote is aggressive.

Cold Cincinnati winters also matter. Full foam insulation matters there. Perimeter insulation is brochure nonsense once temperatures really drop.

Your 9 foot slab gives you plenty of room for most 7 foot to 7.5 foot models comfortably.

For sizing, I would probably steer you toward:

Master Twilight 7.25 or 8.25
Artesian Captiva or grand Cayman (fewer of the expensive high flow jets)

Those all fit the no lounger, open seating, stronger therapy goal much better than a modern Vanguard.

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. If you get written quotes, send them to me and I’ll route you to the same sellers, get better numbers, and cover you with Buyer Protection if anybody starts playing games.

What budget range are you targeting?

Thanks for the quick reply. The budget question is tough. We have already had the sticker shock of having not looked at prices for a couple of decades. We are willing to spend what it is worth to get the quality we want, but evaluate the price-features relationship constantly.

Sorry, I forgot to add to my reply: What are the approximate prices for those 4 tubs?

Twilight hot tubs and Artesian Captiva or grand Cayman should come in through retail run between $13-$15k

Below that Look at Instinct spas... same build quality from the same factory but no marketing budget which knocks of 30% it was $11-12k in stores but once we got it direct for our customers it dropped to $8600 delivered and installed and its built like a tank... https://instinctspas.com/

We are ready to move forward with purchase. How do we connect with your buying service?

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Sign up here and we will contact you and jump on a quick call to go thorough stuff or just get going with pricing, what ever works best for you.

Also, I can see replies here but I do not get the emails, not even in spam/junk folder. Fyi

ok bills on it :-)